The Creeping - Part 1: Concepts
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 3:08 am
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 5:05 am
As long as we're running with the idea of acids, maybe Noxter units could be propelled by superbase-superacid reactions similar to the matter-antimatter reactions that power most conventional ships. 
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 6:44 am
Those are interesting questions. The average Noxter is indeed sentient and intelligent, but those capabilities vary highly from species to species. Perhaps we have to define the term "Noxter" here a bit closer, as the swarm does not consist of just one species. I think you could see "Noxter" as the name of a space-based ecosystem, or a special kind of evolution of life. All Noxter share the basic way of encoding genetic information (they don't have a DNA like we do) and they roughly consist of the same proteins and their bodies work similar.. But well, thats also true for humans and dogs.
The most capable Noxter - mental wise - is the Mother. She is not only capable to forge genetic seeds, she also acts as some kind of communications hub. The Mother emits hormones into the swarm.Nebula that serve as a base for chemical communication between he Noxter. Besides that they don't have a known language, and yet nobody was able to communicate with a Noxter, although the Federation tried for quite some time.
Noxter are not controlled by an "Overmind" or super entity, as - in theory - every Noxter can decide itself if it wants to execute the chemical information package it received, their intellectual capabilities are similar to us humans, but they have a very different view of the universe, physics, technology and goals for life in general, so usually there are no conflicts. But well, who knows what the future brings, with so many strange, metal ships flying around!
The most capable Noxter - mental wise - is the Mother. She is not only capable to forge genetic seeds, she also acts as some kind of communications hub. The Mother emits hormones into the swarm.Nebula that serve as a base for chemical communication between he Noxter. Besides that they don't have a known language, and yet nobody was able to communicate with a Noxter, although the Federation tried for quite some time.
Noxter are not controlled by an "Overmind" or super entity, as - in theory - every Noxter can decide itself if it wants to execute the chemical information package it received, their intellectual capabilities are similar to us humans, but they have a very different view of the universe, physics, technology and goals for life in general, so usually there are no conflicts. But well, who knows what the future brings, with so many strange, metal ships flying around!
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 6:47 am
Very cool, and very interesting...thanks Optec 
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 12:09 pm
What about my idea (Pg 7 regarding resources)? To me I think it is logical that a bionetic species would use biological resources. Man, I wish people could at least tell me how good or how bad game play would be if that idea were implimented. In fact, I'd like to put an extension to it if you don't mind.
The Noxter are a biological species using Bio-netic base (Biomatter), Bio-steel, and the Neucleonic Ion cores. Due to the fact none of these are able to be purely mined, I propose the following. There is the thing that evolves into stations, it will evolve into a station that converts mined resource into biomatter. The mining units might hold a fairly large cargo such as 300 dil and 200 tri. The purpose in this is because biomatter conversion is not a 1:1 ratio. The ratio can be determined by the Devs. Now, to get the other resources there are two stations that can also be built. A bio-steel generator can be constructed where a freighter would deliver tritanium to the station to be converted, since bio-steel is high density and complex, I'm thinking of a ratio like 20 tri makes 1 bio-steel, plus if possible one biomatter unit would be used for every new biosteel unit. For the cores, it requires something similar to the borg's incubation matrix. But since these things are complex and high in mass, and due to generation costs. It would generate one Ion core every 11 minutes, to buy a core would cost 1200 Biomatter and 750 bio-steel or something like that.
I believe this would help make the minor details more realistic, personally I think the slow production of them Ion cores will balance out since units using such things would be half-way to a stand-alone vessel or flagship.
Optec, Doca, before you just say no. At least try to preceive how this can balance out the game play a bit. You could have powerful ships, slow core income, and slow construction wich can really make sure the race is not over-powered. And, to me it would make the race act more like a bio race if it uses bio resources.
The Noxter are a biological species using Bio-netic base (Biomatter), Bio-steel, and the Neucleonic Ion cores. Due to the fact none of these are able to be purely mined, I propose the following. There is the thing that evolves into stations, it will evolve into a station that converts mined resource into biomatter. The mining units might hold a fairly large cargo such as 300 dil and 200 tri. The purpose in this is because biomatter conversion is not a 1:1 ratio. The ratio can be determined by the Devs. Now, to get the other resources there are two stations that can also be built. A bio-steel generator can be constructed where a freighter would deliver tritanium to the station to be converted, since bio-steel is high density and complex, I'm thinking of a ratio like 20 tri makes 1 bio-steel, plus if possible one biomatter unit would be used for every new biosteel unit. For the cores, it requires something similar to the borg's incubation matrix. But since these things are complex and high in mass, and due to generation costs. It would generate one Ion core every 11 minutes, to buy a core would cost 1200 Biomatter and 750 bio-steel or something like that.
I believe this would help make the minor details more realistic, personally I think the slow production of them Ion cores will balance out since units using such things would be half-way to a stand-alone vessel or flagship.
Optec, Doca, before you just say no. At least try to preceive how this can balance out the game play a bit. You could have powerful ships, slow core income, and slow construction wich can really make sure the race is not over-powered. And, to me it would make the race act more like a bio race if it uses bio resources.
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 12:14 pm
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 1:54 pm
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on July 2nd, 2009, 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think your "neucleonic ion core" idea sounds much too technological (and altogether way too similar to the Borg) for the Noxter, Gamer 
The other resources sound like you are just changing the way the the moons are harvested... not actually changing how the resource is utilized... Just my two cents though
I think the plan for the Noxter is to have lots of weak runty ships, and also some big powerful ships too--remember the ant swarm idea, Gamer
Edit: grr... spelling mistakes
The other resources sound like you are just changing the way the the moons are harvested... not actually changing how the resource is utilized... Just my two cents though
I think the plan for the Noxter is to have lots of weak runty ships, and also some big powerful ships too--remember the ant swarm idea, Gamer
Edit: grr... spelling mistakes
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 2:27 pm
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 2:30 pm
I think V4 will have Ciadan or Iconian; as far as I remember v3 will have Noxter eventually... but I guess it's best to hear Optec or Doca confirm it (though they will most likely say... soon )
)posted on July 2nd, 2009, 2:42 pm
Sounds very interesting, I am eager to try them out.
Keep up the good work
Keep up the good work
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 3:08 pm
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 3:42 pm
Optec wrote:Those are interesting questions. The average Noxter is indeed sentient and intelligent, but those capabilities vary highly from species to species. Perhaps we have to define the term "Noxter" here a bit closer, as the swarm does not consist of just one species. I think you could see "Noxter" as the name of a space-based ecosystem, or a special kind of evolution of life. All Noxter share the basic way of encoding genetic information (they don't have a DNA like we do) and they roughly consist of the same proteins and their bodies work similar.. But well, thats also true for humans and dogs.
The most capable Noxter - mental wise - is the Mother. She is not only capable to forge genetic seeds, she also acts as some kind of communications hub. The Mother emits hormones into the swarm.Nebula that serve as a base for chemical communication between he Noxter. Besides that they don't have a known language, and yet nobody was able to communicate with a Noxter, although the Federation tried for quite some time.
Noxter are not controlled by an "Overmind" or super entity, as - in theory - every Noxter can decide itself if it wants to execute the chemical information package it received, their intellectual capabilities are similar to us humans, but they have a very different view of the universe, physics, technology and goals for life in general, so usually there are no conflicts. But well, who knows what the future brings, with so many strange, metal ships flying around!
Very interesting! This reminds me of the book "The Swarm" from Schätzing which is outstanding. There the organisms are linked by a gelish substance that forces them to act for a higher beeing that has lived in the deep see for millions of years. For humans it's toxic also.
anyways, this is different to the Noxters as you say they don't have a queen or forcing being that control the will of the different species.
So, when you say that the mother give order through hormones this reminds me of the physiology of plants with the slight difference of that plants don't think. There the mechanisms of phyto hormones are linked together and form some sort of a cycle of order. Hormone A is produced in every bud. The top bud hormone A decrease/nullify the effect of the Homone A which is produced in lower buds so they stay dormant. The top bud starts growing.
On the other side Hormone B is produced in the roots and itself influences Homeone A there's no uncontrolled growing (the plant would grown to death).
there are thousands of hormones which enhance or decrease the effect of other hormones. Light, cold, darkness etc. also influence production or dismantlin of hormones.
There's a very constant equilibrium in the whole system of hormone interaction. Until today by far not all chamical substances that are classified as phyto hormones are found.
It's controlling system is working in it self which to me is an outstanding thing. There's no force or mind that is driving it. It just is, interacting with the environment it lives in. And still, there is evidence of communication between plants though phyto hormones. Fungi, called mycorrhiza are able to link the rooting system together of hundreds of square kilometers of forest with just ONE fungus. Chemical substances are transported through the hyphes of this fungus and cause a reaction in the foreign tree.
I could imagine somthing similar for the Noxter.
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 4:50 pm
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on July 2nd, 2009, 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'd like to argue that it seems more similar to bacterial cultures. The plant afterall is still one organism (you don't need a mind/nervous system to drive a process--the cells are eukaryotic and thus share a common genetic sequence. Our conscious minds aren't the controlling factor of our biology either afterall... and most organisms on this planet lack a nervous system alltogether and still rule us all)
Many bacteria "communicate" with each other via chemical signaling and can change how each grows individually and as a related group by taking up these chemicals or not (in stress environments they will take them up more readily) and actively exchange genetic material and produce secretions that kill off other bacteria--all individually, yet with some view towards preserving fellow bacteria (for instance, if food stressed, all the bacteria in range of "food stress signals" will stop dividing and go into a sort of diapause until more food is available--> although they compete with eachother, most act in concert to prevent disasters)
Many bacteria "communicate" with each other via chemical signaling and can change how each grows individually and as a related group by taking up these chemicals or not (in stress environments they will take them up more readily) and actively exchange genetic material and produce secretions that kill off other bacteria--all individually, yet with some view towards preserving fellow bacteria (for instance, if food stressed, all the bacteria in range of "food stress signals" will stop dividing and go into a sort of diapause until more food is available--> although they compete with eachother, most act in concert to prevent disasters)
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 5:13 pm
Both have good points, but Optec said in his post that Noxter are not 1 particular specias but more of an ecosystem. Working in harmony to repel any threats and solve all problems - too bad for those who enter their ecosystem then lol
But if Id have to make a connection to an earth animal species it would be either the ants or bees, they communicate via hormones too and are a bit smarter than bacteria Though they are still only 1 species.
Though I must say, communication via hormones seems like a very inefficient way for species that are as smart as humans. There is no room for quick adaptation or specific commands in there and I think, if someone from trek starship wanted to, it would be pretty easy to block the hormones thus making the whole Noxter hiarchy useless. Not to mention that hormones actually need to travel to every organism, which means that there is quite big a lag between orders and the execution of them (khmmm, to think about it, how cool would it be to have everything you do lag behind depending on how far away the controled organism is from the mother)
Whatever though, I must say I love the idea of Noxter and organic space species in general. How would StarCraft feel without Zerg or Warhammer 40k without Tyranids? I think they will add that rushing ant factor into the game. I just hope the engine will allow the team to implement them better than they were in Beta2.
But if Id have to make a connection to an earth animal species it would be either the ants or bees, they communicate via hormones too and are a bit smarter than bacteria
Though they are still only 1 species.Though I must say, communication via hormones seems like a very inefficient way for species that are as smart as humans. There is no room for quick adaptation or specific commands in there and I think, if someone from trek starship wanted to, it would be pretty easy to block the hormones thus making the whole Noxter hiarchy useless. Not to mention that hormones actually need to travel to every organism, which means that there is quite big a lag between orders and the execution of them (khmmm, to think about it, how cool would it be to have everything you do lag behind depending on how far away the controled organism is from the mother
) Whatever though, I must say I love the idea of Noxter and organic space species in general. How would StarCraft feel without Zerg or Warhammer 40k without Tyranids? I think they will add that rushing ant factor into the game. I just hope the engine will allow the team to implement them better than they were in Beta2.
posted on July 2nd, 2009, 5:27 pm
Yes, hormones would be fine within an individual.. but between individuals in space? Very odd indeed... *cue Star Trek technobabble* . No idea how that would be implemented honestly, but then again a lot of stuff in Star Trek is pretty far fetched--but still darn interesting and fun...
Gotta love the Tyranids (mm, Carnifex running deranged through the streets
)
. No idea how that would be implemented honestly, but then again a lot of stuff in Star Trek is pretty far fetched--but still darn interesting and fun...Gotta love the Tyranids (mm, Carnifex running deranged through the streets
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