The Beauty of Numbers

posted on November 12th, 2009, 5:35 pm

Lol it's fine.  I did use your post to lead into what I wanted to say, but it was mainly directed to all the people who are like "Oh my gosh!!! I keep sending my lemmings off the cliff and they keep falling!!!!!  Why???"

posted on November 12th, 2009, 5:45 pm

Sucks to have a single station with artillery range completely remove destroyers from any battles that happen near them is my point.

I was mainly replying to this part of the post. While its obvious you cant build perimeters in the early game phase, the destroyers can still be present in the later game stages as can perimeters. But really, just dont go engaging your enemy if he's near the perimeters. Just trun around and fight another day

posted on November 12th, 2009, 6:31 pm

"Oh my gosh!!! I keep sending my lemmings off the cliff and they keep falling!!!!!  Why???"

Haha i think this is my new sig

posted on November 12th, 2009, 7:48 pm

Tempting, but I like mine more...

I'm a fan of GitS...

Still I was torn between what I chose and part of the intro from "Black Lagoon". It was no contest, though, once I remembered that BL OP has the word "shit" in its lyrics.

Anyways, I think it's pointless to whine about Destroyers being destroyed by the Perimeters. They are supposed to do that!

As Mr. Baron said, don't approach your Destroyers to the perimeter. And yes, someone that has a perimeter early in a game, has to have sacrificed ship building, so he/she is wide open every where else.

posted on November 12th, 2009, 8:28 pm

Tempting, but I like mine more...

I'm a fan of GitS...

Still I was torn between what I chose and part of the intro from "Black Lagoon". It was no contest, though, once I remembered that BL OP has the word "shit" in its lyrics.

Anyways, ...

[hijack] I loved the playstation game for that, even though it was fuchikoma intensive. it would have been nice to fight hand to hand, although i did love the fuchikoma's AI[/hijack]

posted on November 12th, 2009, 10:38 pm

It is possible to get Perimeters pretty early on in if you are engaging in teamplay, but indeed sacrificing ship production is the tradeoff. The problem with the Perimeters (as with Engine Overload, and Sensor Jammer, Sensor Blackout ... possibly even the good 'ol Hyperspace) is the specific type of area of effect weaponry which has an unlimited effect and makes it much easier to bunker down in general, or get away with bad tactics.

[Boggz]

posted on November 13th, 2009, 4:36 am

Last edited by Boggz on November 13th, 2009, 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

It is possible to get Perimeters pretty early on in if you are engaging in teamplay, but indeed sacrificing ship production is the tradeoff. The problem with the Perimeters (as with Engine Overload, and Sensor Jammer, Sensor Blackout ... possibly even the good 'ol Hyperspace) is the specific type of area of effect weaponry which has an unlimited effect and makes it much easier to bunker down in general, or get away with bad tactics.

  It's clear to me now that Dom hit the real issue I was going for.  I got myself a little sidetracked.

I feel that the Perimeter itself is not out of balance nor is it too good, just that the AT charges unnecessarily render many vessels obsolete.  I just feel that like Field of Fire it should be spread out amongst more ships.  Granted Perimeter's cannot be spammed in the same manner as Luspets but in any game more than 1 v 1 enough time is capable of throwing perimeters up quickly.  This ends the destroyer phase essentially as harassing a base or an expansion that includes a perimeter is out of the question until Cruisers and Battleships come into play.  I, personally assumed Fleet Ops had a goal of avoiding instant and default rushes to Battleship fleets and aimed at having (generally) having a more steady climb until a great Battleship climax.

   The real reason I mentioned it was because Klingons (even though they are getting a major overhaul) rely very heavily on destroyers for more than just the early stages of the game.  KbeajQ's and Susa's are frequently used well into the middle of the game.  Sang's still drop like flies to a perimeter even though (I believe) they are technically designated as a small Cruiser.  That basically leaves Vorcha's as the only real viable option unless you're crazy enough to try and tech to Neghvars.  Vorcha's, however are expensive and require huge investments in research and stations to adequately equip them.  Please tell me that by the time Vorcha's are ready the opponent "won't have a fleet because it spent aaaaall it's resources on the perimeter".

   Qaw'Duj energy draining is really not practical.  Each one drains 80 special energy.  Perimeter's have ... 1300?  Maybe if you massed Qaw'Duj you could prevent half the charges.  Impractical if you ask me.  Qaw'Duj will be laid to waste by most anything else that comes at you.
 
   Dunno.  I just think it needs a spreading characteristic to avoid seeing a nearby fleet of destroyers cooked in seconds. 

EDIT:  Got some sexy numbers!

Cost of fielding a Perimeter vs. building a fleet: (ignoring the shipyard as it's needed for both)

PERIMETER-
Technology Lab (600d - 300t)
Large Yard  (1440d - 360t)
Perimeter   (467d - 158t - 50s) + (400dt for AT upgrade)
Total:  2927d, 1218t, 50s

  Hardly Late game material.  A Cube can be out Mid-game and is far far than that.

[Anonymous]

posted on November 13th, 2009, 8:03 am

Last edited by Anonymous on November 13th, 2009, 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Romulans can trip the charges and then send in

Dominion can play the trip the charges game

I understand that in my post I did not specifically explain that the Klingons may also play the "trip the charges game".  You can either send in a medium cruiser like the Charg’H or even sacrifice some scouts or brels.  The AT charges can be used 4 times before the energy runs out.  The point of having the Qawdujs is to keep them from regaining energy once you have already tripped the charges.  3-4 Qawduj is more than enough to deal with this, but you may have more if you want.  80 might not sound like a lot, but 240-320 energy lost every 10 seconds (from 3-4 Qawduj) is considerable.

The sang will take a lot of damage because it is a small vessel.  The AT charge's damage is based on size, not ship type.  I know I've said cruiser, but it really has more to do with it being at least a medium cruiser.  But again, using Qawduj's is very viable.  By the time you notice they've built perimeters you can pump out 3-4 Qawduj and some sacrificial scouts, then build the armory and research the ionizing torpedo by the time you get there.  Once tripped and continually getting drained of power, you can send in your susas or whatever you have and take them down.

Now, in 1v1 there's no way you could pull this off, but even in team games, if someone isn't building ships in the early game to tech up early, and you and your team mate are building ships, you can easily take out the other player and destroy their base because his ally doesn't have any ships to send as backup.  So it doesn't really matter if you have to tech up because you've just destroyed one opponent without any difficulty.  You can keep the other from expanding and tech up to whatever you want.

Please tell me that by the time Vorcha's are ready the opponent "won't have a fleet because it spent aaaaall it's resources on the perimeter".

Well, how about I tell you that by the time your Vorcha's or Qawduj's are ready, they won't have much of a fleet because they spent aaaaall their resources on the perimeters. :kid:  If you build 3 perimeters and only upgrade their AT charges, that's 2526 dilithium you have spent on static defenses, not to mention the other two thousand you spent on the early technology lab and large construction yard.  That's 5 V-13s, or 9 Bombers, or 13 bugs (8, 15, 22 respectively if you include the early lab and large yard) that you don't have with the rest of your fleet to attack.  Those numbers are not insignificant in multiplayer as you know.  So if you attack somewhere the perimeters are not, you're facing a fleet much smaller than you would have, and even the Klingons can win at those odds. ::)

And placement is moot as well.  If the perimeters are alone, you can easily take them out, even if there are 3, based on the strategies I've listed.  But what if 3 perimeters are at their base with their fleet sitting there?  Then go to their expansion.  Their fleet has to move and engage you or lose a great deal of their income.  If they're at their expansion, go for their base.

But what if each one is at a different location?  Well, attack where their fleet isn't.   They're free kills.  And remember, you're not alone.  You have a team mate helping you.  And remember you just blew up the other guy in the first 10 minutes because you had twice the forces he had.  So I really feel that Perimeters are fine, because each race has a decent counter to them.  If you ever encounter perimeters, try using the Qawdujs and see how you like it.  Between those and susas, you can take them down pretty quick.

Now as to what Dom was saying, I have no problem with the way things are now.  But I also have no problems if AoE gets changed, even the ones that are supposed to be balanced by caps.  I like the distortion field on Sovs because let's face it:  We don't get to see many battleships in multiplayer.  And usually it's easy to gang up on those slower vessels and swarm them with cruisers/destroyers before they can respond.  So having a ship that counters destroyers in the very late game doesn't bother me.

But that's not really the issue he was getting at.  It's really about whether nuke type specials should be allowed at all, or at least in their current fashion.  There are 3 main reasons why nuke units have their places in an RTS.  Nuke units are: 

• Fun
• Allow you to turn the tide if your over-confident opponent gets sloppy

• Fun

The downside is that they can:

• Make it easier to bunker down in general
• Allow you to get away with bad tactics.

• Pretty much what Dom said

So yeah, I don't care either way about whether or not there are changes to AoE.  I guess what I'm saying is that of all the unlimited AoE abilities, the Perimeter is the least scary.  You know where it is, so if you go rushing up to it with units it's designed to counter, without any plan except that the one you copied from the battle of Little Big Horn , then you're going to get your ass kicked, and deservedly so.

posted on November 13th, 2009, 8:37 am

Well I don't know, Mal.  You and I agree on most things but here I'm not so sure.  Rarely do I see 3 perimeters put up in one place.  By the time 3 are up I believe they are easily countered, but I'm talking about the fact that they have an ability out of line with what Fleet Ops seems to strive for - fleet variance.  I don't like a unit that renders a type of ship a liability.

  Come up with examples all you want.  Dom puts it well in another thread by saying that most games of 1 v 1 are over seeing most fleets comprised of smaller and medium vessels with a few battleships and heavy support providing the Ace.  2 v 2 and even 2 player ffa usually end up in a teching race with fleets of heavy units crushing whomever is bold enough to leave their base first.  I find the smaller unit battles more interesting and I think that's what makes FLOPS unique amongst other mods.

  I'm not going to pretend I'm a dev on this mod and say what the game is for, but the impression I've received is that when a game devolves into a tech race and "who can field the most battleships first" the game is repetitive and boring.  FLOPS has the benefit of supporting destroyer and cruiser production by making harassment a vital part of keeping tech-hungry starts a liability.  Perimeters are cheap and easy to make.  It doesn't take that long and you know it.  Bugs are cheap and with a few up you can hold off an opponent until a Perimeter is ready.  Once it is up the threat of an attack is postponed considerably until specific ships are created to disable it.  At that point the Dominion can make up for any ship shortage they may have incurred due to building the Perimeter.  Lol Goo does it all the time.  He is a turtler and chooses defense over offense.  Granted Perimeter's and turrets do not win games, but they allow enough time for a breen dom player to spam cruisers and battleships or a puretech player to make a pair of artilleries while spamming bugs.

  It's just silly.  They change the initiative on the battlefield too drastically.  The same manner in which a good sensor blackout will make you go "oh well this battle is over before it started, time to retreat until the effect wears off".

posted on November 13th, 2009, 10:27 am

I'm currently looking at area effect weapons in general, and its likely that they are getting adjusted a bit, either in the upcoming patch, or the one after

posted on November 13th, 2009, 5:19 pm

Works for me

posted on November 13th, 2009, 5:24 pm

Usually most 2v2 games have the small and medium units with heavy support.  Usually it's 3 player ffa that ends up with the massive build up of battleships, because everyone's afraid of losing to the thrid opponent.   And every race can spam a lot of small vessels that will own battleships (norexans vs susa, anyone? ), so I feel that if battleships have their counters, then there's no problem with having a counter against smaller ships as well.

I do have to disagree about building perimeters not taking long to build.  It takes over two minutes (130 seconds) to build a perimeter, and that's after you've spent all your money teching up.  One yard of bugs isn't enough to hold off against someone who did what they were supposed to.

And yes, I'm with you on spamming only battleships is dumb.  Your endgame Dominion fleet should be a small collection of almost all the ships in the Dominion fleet. A strong core of V-13s, with three C-17 siege cruisers, four S-2 Escort Cruisers, a small fleet of A-26 Bombers, and any remaining A-20 Attack Destroyers creates a balanced fleet that can handle any opposition that may come its way. 

The reason why I don't have a problem with someone trying to tech up to Perimeters is it is just as unsound as trying to use the Dominion's unique tech tree to go straight to Breen Battleships.  I've had team mates do that.  "Mal, I don't have any ships to help defend you when you're getting attacked 2v1 or even 3v1.  Mal, I'm being attacked!  Mal, Why aren't you instantly over here????!!!  Mal, why haven't you attacked yet to help slow down the waves?  Mal.... "  Now I know what it's like being a parent.

Initiative is really just perceived control of the map.  If someone happens to build perimeters, they may think they're taking initiative, but it means that I just blow something else up while they waste their time.  Then the perimeter player is like "damn, wish I didn't have this lousy perimeter.

One suggestion that would work is taking away the Perimeter's bonus to small vessels and maybe decreasing the energy cost a bit.  That way, small vessels won't be 2 shot, but will still take heavy damage simply because they have low hit points.  But if we do that, then we should take away the klingon vetern ability "condensed proton warhead", because it's an unlimited aoe that does massive damage to battleships.  Balancing everything isn't easy for sure.  I'm sure Optec and DC will do great in this next patch, which is going to give small, short ranged vessels a huge boost.  Until then, you now have a tactic that will work if someone tries to put up a perimeter that will allow your small klingons ships to close in.

Well I don't know, Mal.

Yes, you do.  Because I'm using the Jedi Mind Trick over the internet to convince you.

posted on November 13th, 2009, 6:06 pm

The reason why I don't have a problem with someone trying to tech up to Perimeters is it is just as unsound as trying to use the Dominion's unique tech tree to go straight to Breen Battleships.  I've had team mates do that.  "Mal, I don't have any ships to help defend you when you're getting attacked 2v1 or even 3v1.  Mal, I'm being attacked!  Mal, Why aren't you instantly over here????!!!  Mal, why haven't you attacked yet to help slow down the waves?  Mal.... "  Now I know what it's like being a parent.

Laff   I'm pretty sure I provided the reason why your teammate needed help.   :woot:

Initiative is really just perceived control of the map.  If someone happens to build perimeters, they may think they're taking initiative, but it means that I just blow something else up while they waste their time.  Then the perimeter player is like "damn, wish I didn't have this lousy perimeter.

 

Maybe so and I agree of course that initiative is perceived control, but it is also reflective of what it possible at the moment.  Once a perimeter is completed the resources are immediately returned to vessel production.  In small maps it may not be so hard but in a larger map where it can take 45 seconds to reach an opponents base the 2 minute build time is certainly softened.

One suggestion that would work is taking away the Perimeter's bonus to small vessels and maybe decreasing the energy cost a bit.  That way, small vessels won't be 2 shot, but will still take heavy damage simply because they have low hit points. 

I dig it 

But if we do that, then we should take away the klingon vetern ability "condensed proton warhead", because it's an unlimited aoe that does massive damage to battleships.  Balancing everything isn't easy for sure. 

On the other hand, it's a veteran ability and not easy to secure.  I agree that once it's there it's a HUGE bitch to deal with, but it's certainly less prolific than 3 Perimeters.

Yes, you do.  Because I'm using the Jedi Mind Trick over the internet to convince you.

  These are not the droids you're looking for.

  Btw - Sir Alec Guiness was sitting there thinking "it should be 'These are not the droids for which you are looking' ..."

[Anonymous]

posted on November 13th, 2009, 7:42 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on November 13th, 2009, 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My point is teching up early with the Dominion does not provide good results in any situation.  They need the two early yards produce the vessels to compete.  You can try 1 yard and mixed tech, and if you don't get attacked right away, it works.  But either going straight to Battlecruisers or Perimeters will cause you to lose.  And even if it takes 45 seconds to reach one end of the map, that's still 85 seconds to deal with them, assuming worst case scenario, where you're at the farthest point away on the map.  On large maps it's even better, because you can keep them from expanding while you rake in plenty of cash from all the extra moons.  So play their game, only by your rules.  

I know what you're saying.  People try to abuse the hell out of the unique things in the Dominion tech tree, and try to skip over the normal progression of teching up.  It annoys me even more because I wrote the guide on how to play with a balanced Dominion fleet.  If you follow the tactics in that write-up, it's far superior than teching immediately to Dreads (only newer players fear early dreads, and people like to own noobs. ) or what have you.  Everyone wants the big vessel or turret because it's fun to play with that kind of power, but the balanced fleet really is the way to go. 

If I seem antagonistic, it's because one thing this game has is flexibility, and I don't want that to change.  If you really want to, you can build battleships and the like early.  It's just not a good idea.  Having more than one strategy for each race is nice, so if someone wants to turtle with powerful turrets, I saw more power to 'em.  I'll just counter it and win the game.  I hate hard caps and things that restrict players, and Optec does a good job of making sure that some strategies just aren't efficient.  I'm sure that's what we both love about this game.  If you like my suggestion on how to change AT charges, I hope they'll give it a go and see how it works.

The good news is the patch will come out and change a lot of things, and interceptor units will make smaller units even more powerful.  I also like the fact that some higher tier vessels are going to be stronger against interceptors, because I always felt like battleships got the shaft the most, since tier 1 bombers are a cost effective way to take them out.  So this may all be moot.  But until then, there are counters to perimeters for every race that don't deviate much from your average build order.

Edit:  Just want to say that I'm glad AoE in general is being looked at.  I do agree it sucks when you get sensor jammer spammed, etc.

posted on November 13th, 2009, 8:46 pm

Well then I think we're more in agreement than we might have thought.  I am also against hard caps and very much supportive of a flexible gamestyle.
   
  I don't want the game to devolve into a battleship uber-weapon race any more than I want it to REQUIRE you to hopskotch the tech tree and make a balanced fleet.  I feel the game should support whatever strategy you wish, but would make obstacles for each.  I feel the Flops team has done a marvelous job of that already.

  I think for me it's mainly the unlimited and severe damage a perimeter can do.  You make excellent points about it's usage and what kinds of things can be done in case one is sought after.  I agree completely, but I still just tend to dislike something that lays utter waste to another class.

  I played very little Starcraft, but the Templar's with their lightning storm seemed to me to always be a bit too obvious a choice and too easily executed.  I also feel that way about the Hyperspace artillery.  It's got a large aoe, unlimited damage over many targets, and does not really put the user in much harms way.  It doesn't have to stop or even be facing it's target to be used and start running.

  Anyway, seems like we're just barkin' now that Optec pointed out AoE will be revised.  It's a very tough subject to find answers for and never will everyone be completely satisfied.