Special Technologies and Teamplay

posted on October 19th, 2012, 3:19 am

Yep, stuff similar to how the current Borg / Romulan team combo of Scout Cube and Leahval is regarded by some, or Fed Warp-In rushes. Strategies or mechanics that are perceived to give the player or team using them a huge unearned advantage.

posted on October 19th, 2012, 4:55 am

FYI: Dom is being ironic ("felt"), and basically describing a rush, not a cheese strat.

But hey, Team Liquid has a lovely explanation:
Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted.

Strategies or mechanics that are perceived to give the player or team using them a huge unearned advantage.

That would be just missing balance, options, or just failed teamplay / counters.


So i'm asking again, how do you define "super cheesy", and what's the problem with it?
A Dreadgnought rush would be cheesy for an example, but easy counterable.

posted on October 19th, 2012, 6:45 pm

That's the first time I've seen that Team Liquid definition of "cheese" (don't know who they are; I don't follow RTS e-sports as I much prefer to play games to spectating). It's a reasonable definition, too. It's different from meanings that have been implied in the ways I've seen it commonly used over the years, but as a common-basis definition I'm willing to go "sure, I can run with that".

As for "super-cheesy", you could perhaps apply some commonly understood meanings of the word "super" when applied as an adjective:

6. of the highest degree, power, etc.
7. of an extreme or excessive degree.

So how can we apply that to the Team Liquid definition of "cheese"? What would perhaps take a "cheese" strategy to an excessive or even the highest degree that "super-cheese" would be a viable label for it? Hmm, perhaps ... finding that it wins regardless of whether or not it's scouted? Which also seems to include "Strategies or mechanics that are perceived to give the player or team using them a huge unearned advantage".

And yes, it is a result of "missing balance, options, or [...] counters," which is what I was exhorting the devs to note and patch out if such things are found. So I think we're likely in agreement, regardless of minor quibbles over definitions.

Edit: as an aside, with the huge advantage some factions have in scouting in 3.2.6, even regular "cheese" strategies should be looked at with a critical eye. Of course, Grey Mode should go some way to evening the scouting score in FleetOps next, but until we get that patch any discussion on the effect it'll have in actual play is quite theoretical.

posted on October 19th, 2012, 7:55 pm

In my personal belief, cheese strats are not really that bad. I actualy find it awesome that if you can avoid being scouted and pull off a cheese its just as rewarding of a victory as a normaly played game. I really hope that the opertunity for cheese play is increased in the next patch because the current lack of "High reisk, high reward" buillds vs "Omni functional" builds really makes good cheese play very hard. Have some way to play super risky for the chance for a reward is way more fun. cuz i have never really liked conventional style play.

posted on October 19th, 2012, 10:37 pm

And your points, Styer, cut to the centre of my ambivalence. On the one hand, I would like the game to be flexible enough to give players opportunities for such creativity. But on the other, I would want that to be balanced by affording all factions a level playing field, at least in terms of availability, when it comes to the means of being able to detect "cheese" and formulate a timely counter.

posted on October 20th, 2012, 7:44 am

It's different from meanings that have been implied in the ways I've seen it...

Many communities tend to just randomly whine about any kind of strategy that wins. Mostly people do that, who lack imagination and adaptive gameplay - so called one trick ponies.

Which also seems to include "Strategies or mechanics that are perceived to give the player or team using them a huge unearned advantage".

And that's precisely NOT what i meant: cheese strats have NOTHING to do with unfair or unearned advantages. On the contrary, they are earned by imagination and fancy plays the really hard way, a matter of surprise and risk, not of imbalancing.
Cheese strats tend to be uncommon build orders, that can be countered, and if done so, the cheesy players gets into quite some trouble - all about spotting and adapting.

If a build order classified as Cheese fails, the player using it will usually be far behind in the game.

So, a "super" cheese strat would be a complete all in situation, that either works and pretty much wins the game, or gets spotted and grants a free lose.
If a player builds up the same way against every race and every other enemy build up, no matter what the enemy does, and the enemy wins, the enemy didn't necessarily chose a cheese strat, he was just smarter and more adaptive - the player deserves to lose in this case.

So that's where synergies can be more adaptive. A basic buildup can be boosted into a different direction with other vessels. While in 326 your fleet can become quite useless against specific enemy buildups.

just my 2 cents

posted on November 24th, 2012, 11:23 pm

Epic!