Reinforcements have arrived

posted on February 12th, 2008, 10:08 am

300 years of civilization have to lead to something, at least! 

posted on February 12th, 2008, 2:50 pm

300 years of "civilization".
What civilization?

you mean the cheap imitation of Greco-Roman society.. come on.

posted on February 12th, 2008, 4:10 pm

Well, with water vessels there isn't much need for change regarding the hull shape.  What really gets upgraded are the internal systems, adding such indispensable components as nuclear power and fiber-optic data transmission.  Space vessels, on the other hand, seem to have no articular regard for a certain hull "aerodynamics", and thus have more room on the outside for change.

posted on February 12th, 2008, 10:08 pm

Not to mention that the last battleship was decommissioned a few years ago.

posted on February 12th, 2008, 10:31 pm

If it works, why build a new one until you have to? Thats why 2 Iowas were being used up through the 90's. Same for the Miranda and Excelsior, K'tinga, Bird of Prey, and a few other designs in Star Trek.

posted on February 12th, 2008, 10:39 pm

The universal answer is money. And of course politics.
By the way, new US naval ships are in the works... it's just that there is a certain green thing that needs be added to the mixture, which will be approved/denied by said politics.

In Star Trek, the Federation and other groups are in a state of semi-permanent hostile relations. Also, money is not truly a question (specifically in regard to the Federation). Thus there is a huge incentive to build bigger and badder weapons and technology, just like in our world's very own Cold War.

posted on February 13th, 2008, 1:02 am

The universal answer is money. And of course politics.
By the way, new US naval ships are in the works... it's just that there is a certain green thing that needs be added to the mixture, which will be approved/denied by said politics.

In Star Trek, the Federation and other groups are in a state of semi-permanent hostile relations. Also, money is not truly a question (specifically in regard to the Federation). Thus there is a huge incentive to build bigger and badder weapons and technology, just like in our world's very own Cold War.

sweet now all our navy ships are going to be green Literaly

posted on February 13th, 2008, 4:10 am

If it works, why build a new one until you have to? Thats why 2 Iowas were being used up through the 90's. Same for the Miranda and Excelsior, K'tinga, Bird of Prey, and a few other designs in Star Trek.

They weren't used in combat.  The served in a capacity closer to that of giant troop ferries.  Basically, true battleships are useless compared to modern carriers.  And the K'tinga is in use still, just in the much more reasonable role of mining freighter.  The Excelsior is harder to explain, and unfortunately is just due to the sheer laziness of the Trek VFX department (the same laziness that renamed the Sao Paulo to the Defiant just to re-use combat footage).

posted on February 13th, 2008, 6:16 am

Actually, the Iowa's ended up being a giant guided missile cruisers by the time they were decommissioned. I mean if the Iowas and the older ships in Star Trek were never upgraded, they would be very worthless, but in the Dominion war, both the Miranda and Excelsior have modern Phaser strips as well as shields i'm sure, etc, and the BoP and K'tinga have upgraded weapons and stuff as well.

It's not hard to explain at all, as it's always cheaper to just refurbish older material then build completely new stuff. It may not be AS effective, but you can get a LOT more of it in the end.

posted on February 13th, 2008, 2:53 pm

They weren't used in combat.  The served in a capacity closer to that of giant troop ferries.  Basically, true battleships are useless compared to modern carriers.  And the K'tinga is in use still, just in the much more reasonable role of mining freighter.  The Excelsior is harder to explain, and unfortunately is just due to the sheer laziness of the Trek VFX department (the same laziness that renamed the Sao Paulo to the Defiant just to re-use combat footage).

Actually, the Iowas were used for shelling during the Korean and Vietnam War, Operation Earnest Will and the first Gulf War. The US congress was reluctant to have Missouri decommissioned (they'd blocked any  Navy advance in that direction for years) because no other vessel had the ability to strike at targets as far into the enemy mainland as these ships could.

Right now, the US is developing the Zumwalt-class destroyer which will again fill the role of naval-bound artillery. Some people are sceptical the proposed gun solution will match the 406mm main guns of the Iowas, though.

In my opinion, the USN would still use this venerable class if their guns' recoil hadn't made it impossible to fit them with Air Sparrows, since their guidance systems are quite shock-sensitive...

posted on February 13th, 2008, 3:25 pm

In my opinion, the USN would still use this venerable class if their guns' recoil hadn't....

There's nothing venerable in a warship. It's a machine for murder and imperialist hegemony nothing more.

posted on February 13th, 2008, 3:50 pm

ouch.

Well, what about that makes "venerable" an inappropriate word?

posted on February 13th, 2008, 4:45 pm

Something else i just thought of with regards to ships in FO; when your playing a faction, your playing that faction at war. Older ships like the Miranda and Excelsior may be in extensive use in the Federation for exploration and science duties, but when it comes to military assingments they stand aside while Starfleet calls in the newer, more advanced (and thus rarer) vessels, only going to the front themselves in times of great need (such as the Dominion war, where AFAIK Starfleet was outnumbered).

So you could think of oldies like the Excelsior as the unseen heroes; they're doing all the peacefull work to free up the Akiras, Sovereigns and Excelsior-IIs that your commanding.

posted on February 17th, 2008, 1:53 am

Something else i just thought of with regards to ships in FO; when your playing a faction, your playing that faction at war. Older ships like the Miranda and Excelsior may be in extensive use in the Federation for exploration and science duties, but when it comes to military assingments they stand aside while Starfleet calls in the newer, more advanced (and thus rarer) vessels, only going to the front themselves in times of great need (such as the Dominion war, where AFAIK Starfleet was outnumbered).

So you could think of oldies like the Excelsior as the unseen heroes; they're doing all the peacefull work to free up the Akiras, Sovereigns and Excelsior-IIs that your commanding.

Well see, thats all and fine, except thats not canon. The following image, for some reason, has these 'Peaceful' ships you talk about. Odd thing is, they have Phaser banks! Why would they have Phaser banks if their only science ships and transports? Oh thats right, because nearly every ship in the Federation arsenal is actually a exploration vessel first.


^Thats what I'm looking for in Fleet Ops. Which is where we're at, except many useless uncanon designs, and many good canon designs taking a back seat.

[Triarii]

posted on February 17th, 2008, 2:19 am

Last edited by Triarii on February 17th, 2008, 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thats what I'm looking for in Fleet Ops. Which is where we're at, except many useless uncanon designs, and many good canon designs taking a back seat.

I disagree...

To start with, the Excelsior and Miranda not being avaliable to a fleet commander is perfectly understandable. Firstly, Fleet Ops is set after the Domion War, where many Excelsiors and Mirandas were destroyed or extensively damaged. Second, surely both designs are well and truely out of production by the TNG era (thus building them at the shipyards wouldn't make sense), and thirdly, the Dominion War proved that the designs are kinda old and a little frail now, so I think it makes perfect sense that the remaining ones would be kept out of combat (or even decomissioned), and thus you can't call them in using a command base either. Besides, the Fleet Ops team was kind enough to include homages to both designs in the forms of the Excelsior II and Miranda II, so what exactly are you complaining about?

If I were you guys. I'd be asking a more poignant question, like where the hell is the Ambassador? I know it's a fairly old design as well, but I personally think it might be a good idea to make the Amb a warp-in ship. It's not as old as the Excelsior and Miranda and still looks OK along side a modern fleet...

The only other canon designs I can think of (aside from the DS9 Kitbahses and the Wolf 359 ships) are the Nova, Prometheus and Constitution. I still think the first one should replace the Canaveral, the second would admittedly be hard for the FO team to balance and the third I only mention because there was one at 359 (meaning the class didn't go out of service as the Undiscovered Country suggested) and is clearly too old to have any bearing on anything (just as the NX would be to old to have any bearing on anything in the TOS era).

EDIT: Two more classes I didn't mention were the Oberth and Constellation, but both of these designs were lightly armed science ships from the very beginning, and certainly wouldn't be used in a combat situation, not to mention that the Grissom was destroyed by a single hit from a TMP era BOP disruptor and the Stargazer was described as being an "overworked, underpowered vessel", so I think we can safely dismiss these two...