Boggz'z Mapz (Early Bird V1.1!!!)

posted on August 29th, 2010, 6:25 pm

Really liking the new map Boggz, nice job

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on August 29th, 2010, 6:36 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on August 29th, 2010, 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eh... relying too much on Tourni "statistics" unfortunately  :pinch: . If more than 60% of people play Borg/Feds.... well, I'd sure hope they'd win most of the time  :whistling: . In the last few days alone on Tunngle we have complaints ranging from... Borg are too powerful, S-2 is too powerful, Warp-In is too powerful, Leahvals are too powerful, K'Vort are too powerful, cloak is too powerful and so on. If before on Duel it was possible to prevent Feds from expanding and secure your own expansion, now it is extremely difficult on Duel II. You'll never be able to balance a map to the whims of everyone, as someone will always find something to complain about - especially during a tournament.

If my advice seems sound (and non-hypocritical), I'd suggest moving the expansions back to their location on the original Duel and flipping the moon positions to the same as they were on the original Duel.

From there, keep a dilithium moon down in the corners (where the current natural expansion dil moon is) and put back the moon pair in the center as that was a natural attractor which contains severe risks if you go for it first.

Next, I'd narrow the Mutara Nebulae or replace them with a damager (and potentially with one small Mutara within that chain of damagers).

Replacing with a damager however only weakens the Borg, at the expense of destroying all non-Borg tactics for that nebula, which is a real shame (so I wouldn't recommend it too highly).

For now I'll keep playing on the original Duel and a few "1 player 5-start position maps"/other 1v1 maps though for more variety of tactics  :sweatdrop:

EDIT: for that lone dilithium moon suggested to go into the corner, putting a wormhole next to it, connected to the other dilithium moon on the other side might take away some of the attraction of using that dilithium moon completely (the wormhole would be placed around 7 grid squares away from the dilithium moon, in the direction of "homebase" so as to avoid "worm-in/worm-out tactics" ).

posted on August 29th, 2010, 8:57 pm

Some interesting suggestions.  I can see the idea of moving the expansion moons around a bit, and I'm never opposed to having lone moons.

  I hesitate to add a wormhole due to the fact that w do not have a definitive answer on the cause of OoS, though I'm quite sure that wormholes will see it happen.

  With regards to getting my balancing info from the tournament, I think it's perfectly legitimate for me to make fixes based on what I saw.  I assure everyone that the changes are not based on "OMG BORG/FED PWNZOR EVERYTHING I BETTER MAKE IT HARDER FOR THEM!".  Instead I observed numerous games and began to realize what kind of setups favored what race .

  I'm trying to set up Duel II to be favorable to any race, but clearly it's difficult .  There seems to be, at the current patch, no way I've yet found to get a 1 v 1 in this setup to be perfectly balanced and even for all races, so I'm going to continue trying to find the most balanced setup I can

posted on August 30th, 2010, 8:58 am

I will be hosting his maps here and hopefully Phoenix will be willing to let me do the same on his site .

Yep, that's cool

posted on September 4th, 2010, 5:20 pm

Something I have noticed on Star Traffic map which might be a problem are the starting positions. In both bottom positions it is possible to place stations behind the starbase, making attacks on them more difficult. However, both the top positions seem to be the opposite. Almost all stations must be built in front of the starabase, making them easy targets. It seems that the top right position is the worst, as the starbase is right next to asteroids making it impossible to build anything behind it comparing it to its counterpart. The top left position isn't too good either when comparing it to bottom right position.

posted on September 6th, 2010, 10:21 am

I agree about the starting points. Another issue I see in the current version of FO is the importance of centeral positions. Some races can take a huge advantage out of this and other cannot. Namely Fed (early turret) and Dominion (early yard) are candidates for strong center positions.
Maybe place a small green nebula at the center to at least reduce the effect of early camping there?

posted on September 15th, 2010, 5:01 pm

@ Zebh:

  Yeah the starting positions of the Top Right and Bottom Left are not intended to be the same as the others.  They mirror each other and are less open to attack, but are not able to guard the majority of their stations with the Starbase.

  You ARE correct in one thing, though:  The top right is currently the worst spot as the entire map needs to be shifted just slightly down and to the left .  Needless to say ... I haven't been very keen on getting such a job done .

Maybe place a small green nebula at the center to at least reduce the effect of early camping there?

  Assuming you're talking about Star Traffic- there ARE green nebulae in the center .  In fact there are LOTS.  Maybe you didn't notice.  Only Feds really have the ability to take and HOLD the center moon positions without risk due to the fact that Phaser turrets are such beasts.  Even then they are very vulnerable to a double attack if you micro your attackers properly.

[Zebh]

posted on September 16th, 2010, 7:12 pm

Last edited by Zebh on September 16th, 2010, 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The top left position is still considerably different compared to bottom right position. The bottom right position can be attacked below the starbase, the top left position doesn't have the space for that. The dilithium moon is also more behind the cover of the starbase than in the top left position.

I created an picture of the map where the starbases are marked with dots. I drawn 4 horizontal white lines in the picture crossing each starbase position in the original map. The two other images next to it are the map mirrored by the left or right side.

Attachments

[Boggz]

posted on September 17th, 2010, 1:29 am

Last edited by Boggz on September 17th, 2010, 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

I created an picture of the map where the starbases are marked with dots. I drawn 4 horizontal white lines in the picture crossing each starbase position in the original map. The two other images next to it are the map mirrored by the left or right side.

EDIT:  In fact, Zebh, you just did for me EXACTLY what I have been avoiding for months .  You mathematically lined them up for me .  I appreciate it.  Much easier to adjust now.  Thanks again!


Thanks for doing that .

   Yeah the tournament really brought a lot of more intense scrutiny upon what makes a map "fair" for each race, so there are going to be a lot of maps made before some of the more recent revelations about what works best for each faction .

   Might mean that  it's time to update

posted on September 17th, 2010, 3:01 am

Just updated Star Traffic to V1.1 in BIG part due to Zebh providing me with a handy picture of the offset things.

Essentially I have finally got around to evening the map out.  In multiplayer we should experience a much smoother, balanced game.  The two "open" spots (Top Left and Bottom Right) may still expand easily to the middle, but no longer have the cover of their starbases in front of their moons. 

  The "closed" spots, which do not have access to the middle moons, now both have the added protection of their Starbases to help cover their starting moons more easily.



Changes:  (mostly placement)

- General

• All blocking triggers in the extreme corners are removed.  (Go hide!)
• Both Green/Red Nebulae "wedges" are now spaced equally and at the correct angles
• Exposed Green Nebulae now far smaller.  Red creeps into most of it.  It will still heal, albeit more slowly.
• Center expansion moons are now mirrored.

- Top Right starting position

• Now mathematically mirrored to the bottom left.
• Top Right and Bottom Left starting positions adjusted.  They will now have the added protection of their Starbase being in FRONT of their moons as they cannot feasibly expand middle.

- Bottom Left starting position

• Top Right and Bottom Left starting positions adjusted.  They will now have the added protection of their Starbase being in FRONT of their moons as they cannot feasibly expand middle.

- Bottom Right starting position

• Bottom Right and Top Left starting positions are now mirrored essentially.  All moons of their are now harrassable with ease.
• Bottom Right now has no blocking trigger between base and natural expansion.  Natural avoidance is now due to the damaging nebula, but can be traversed.
• Expansion moved slightly closer to correspond with Top Left.

- Top Left starting position

• Bottom Right and Top Left starting positions are now mirrored essentially.  All moons of their are now harrassable with ease.
• Top Left now has no blocking trigger between base and natural expansion.  Natural avoidance is now due to the damaging nebula, but can be traversed.

posted on September 17th, 2010, 3:04 am

Uploading Playground here so that Dom and Yandon can see .

  NOT a fully balanced map - more for fun .

  5 Starting positions, can be used for any number of players.

Attachments

Playground.rar

(49.36 KiB) Downloaded 372 times

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posted on September 17th, 2010, 9:58 am

Assuming you're talking about Star Traffic- there ARE green nebulae in the center Cheesy.  In fact there are LOTS.  Maybe you didn't notice.  Only Feds really have the ability to take and HOLD the center moon positions without risk due to the fact that Phaser turrets are such beasts.  Even then they are very vulnerable to a double attack if you micro your attackers properly.

I talked about Duel I and II...the center position is extremly hard to take back once lost to one or multiple! fed turrets OR to Dominion proxy yard strat. Both strategies give a significant boost to those factions without any penalty. A counter like "go there first" is almost suicide for other races since constructors are too valuable or turrets are too weak/time consuming (Romulans, Klingons, Borg)

Actually it is your best bet to stay at the center keep your stuff growing while waiting for an enemy attack. Then you can decide to counter it by intercept (non cloakers) or go for the opponents base at the same time.

Imo any central positions with 2 moons and no green nebulas give significant advantages to Fed (esp. Mayson) and Dominion 2 yard strats (e.g. B8)...without any real chance to counter it well.

posted on September 17th, 2010, 5:14 pm

I talked about Duel I and II...the center position is extremly hard to take back once lost to one or multiple! fed turrets OR to Dominion proxy yard strat. Both strategies give a significant boost to those factions without any penalty. A counter like "go there first" is almost suicide for other races since constructors are too valuable or turrets are too weak/time consuming (Romulans, Klingons, Borg)

  Duel II has only a single Dilithium moon in the center.  That was part of the plan to limit the overall use of the middle moon pair . 

  The fact that there are now two OTHER options for each player where they can expand was intended to make 1 position (center) less of a win-all.

  The expansion moon positions will be adjusted soon as I get a better feelings for how they need to be .

posted on September 17th, 2010, 5:39 pm

I know that you tried to reduce the effect of the center pos. But do you think it is weakened enough?

posted on September 17th, 2010, 6:49 pm

I do .

  I have yet to see people rush there as they have in the past.  After I adjust the other expansions a bit more I think the center will make a great "finisher" so to speak.  Once a full expansion is held, the center can be taken to make the finishing blow by establishing a very close repair facility/final dilithium.