Fantastic Game - Suggestions

posted on October 14th, 2013, 11:18 pm

Alright everyone, stop your bickering and arguing about the Defiant-class and the Galaxy-class because based on Star Trek Canon the Defiant-class is classified as an Escort but unofficially is a warship, nothing more nothing less to quote Captain Benjamin Sisko in the episode "The Search" (Part 1). The Defiant-class was specially designed to fight and defeat the Borg. Until she was fixed by Chief Miles O'Brien the USS Defiant NX-74205 had design flaws and was overpowered so in her initial test runs she almost tore herself apart so the project was mothballed. With the Dominion threat to Deep Space Nine Commander Sisko asked for the Defiant saying: "She may have flaws but she has teeth."
The Defiant-class, especially the USS Defiant NX-74205 was equipped with Ablative Armor allowing the ship/class to take a heavier beating/pounding from an enemy. With the Ablative Armor the USS Defiant NX-74205 was able to stand up to the stronger Dominion ships as well as the USS Lakota NCC-42768 which had also been upgraded. If anyone remembers, the Lakota was still not a perfect match for the Defiant and during that battle the Lakota received more casualties than the Defiant and could have been destroyed.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Defiant_class
http://ds9.trekcore.com/episodes/season ... opsis.html

In the beginning part of this video, Commander Sisko explains all about the USS Defiant NX-74205 and the Defiant-class:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Moff8DdQM

USS Defiant NX-74205 vs USS Lakota NCC-42768:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Kod0F-MD0

Now on to the Galaxy-class, and unfortunately I don't have much to say about this class of ship. I will say this, the Galaxy-class was designed to be a starship for exploration and not precisely a battleship (minus the Galaxy-class X-Refit) and the Dominion War Refits. Because of the Galaxy-class's role as a ship of Exploration, it was designed to house the families of the crew/officers and also could carry many passengers.
In emergency situations or in battle, nonessential personnel, passengers and families would be evacuated to the saucer section for separation and then the ship would be separated with the saucer fleeing at impulse speeds well the stardrive section would go into battle. The two sections would re-merge after the threat had past or after the battle.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Galaxy_X_class
http://thecordsthatbind.files.wordpress ... -refit.pdf

The Galaxy-class:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IqNjWs1UGQ

Galaxy-class Fire Power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734afLFPds

That is true and I'm not actually trying to make the two comparable but you are neglecting the fact that the Galaxy Class Starship is a true multi-role vessel which can be fitted for a variety of different duties. Something that the Defiant cannot do. The Defiant also was not perfect as the ship was almost destroyed by their first encounter with the Dominion as well, as in "The Search".

All I am saying is that this mod classes the Defiant based on fanboism, rather then on actual canon evidence. The Defiant is far too powerful in this game.

The first encounter a Galaxy class had with the Dominion it was destroyed.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 1:51 am

and the First Encounter the Defiant had with the Dominion... it was also captured and heavily damaged to the point where the Dominion could have easily destroyed it but choose not to in order analyse Commander Sisko and his crew... your point being what? I love how Defiant fanboys seem to forget that but easily bring up about the Odyssey.

Can I also say that denying the Galaxy one of her main features because you don't like it is fundamentally selfish and bigoted, especially when the very FRONT page of this website has a picture of a Galaxy separating on it. False advertising or what?

posted on October 15th, 2013, 3:02 am

But if the galaxy class is soo much better than the defiant, and the Galaxy was destroyed so easily... There is a lot more wrong with this game than the simple accuracy of these two ships.



Hahaha the Galaxy on the front page is pretty funny, I'll give you that.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 3:49 am

But if the galaxy class is soo much better than the defiant, and the Galaxy was destroyed so easily... There is a lot more wrong with this game than the simple accuracy of these two ships.



Hahaha the Galaxy on the front page is pretty funny, I'll give you that.

I never said the Galaxy was better, its more the case that in this particular mod. The devs have put more effort into explict Federation combat vessels then developing the vessels that the Federation already have to be decent combat ships as well.

Although I love the Excelsior II and Miranda II. Those designs are beautiful.

In my opinion, they have failed to capture the essence of the Federation which is not all about war and conquest.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 5:03 am

I never said the Galaxy was better, its more the case that in this particular mod. The devs have put more effort into explict Federation combat vessels then developing the vessels that the Federation already have to be decent combat ships as well.

To be fair, many of the Fed ships in the mod are ships that are shown on-screen. And, as I've already said a couple of times, this mod's Galaxy class is very capable, and potentially available very quickly.

Although I love the Excelsior II and Miranda II. Those designs are beautiful.

I agree on those, E2 especially is a very well executed update of the classic Excelsior design.

In my opinion, they have failed to capture the essence of the Federation which is not all about war and conquest.

An RTS like this will only be able to show the Federation at their most martial. It would take a Civ-like game for their exploration and research strengths to be relevant for gameplay.

[diamond]

posted on October 15th, 2013, 5:30 am

Last edited by diamond on October 15th, 2013, 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

I never said the Galaxy was better, its more the case that in this particular mod. The devs have put more effort into explict Federation combat vessels then developing the vessels that the Federation already have to be decent combat ships as well.

To be fair, many of the Fed ships in the mod are ships that are shown on-screen. And, as I've already said a couple of times, this mod's Galaxy class is very capable, and potentially available very quickly.

Although I love the Excelsior II and Miranda II. Those designs are beautiful.

I agree on those, E2 especially is a very well executed update of the classic Excelsior design.

In my opinion, they have failed to capture the essence of the Federation which is not all about war and conquest.

An RTS like this will only be able to show the Federation at their most martial. It would take a Civ-like game for their exploration and research strengths to be relevant for gameplay.

Correction, the Galaxy class in this game has been reduced to being a "gimmick" status for the warp in "gimmick" which you might as well be playing the lottery for. Why can't they just let us BUILD Galaxy classes and not only be able to have a few of them because of the (imo stupid) Federation Warp In Gimmick. No, their too busy letting you construct ships that don't exist like the Phalanx.

If you think Saucer Seperation and MVAM is a gimmick, the Federation Warp In Lottery has to be the worst gimmick I've seen for a long time. How about an additional shipyard that lets us actually BUILD those ships.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 5:31 am

and the First Encounter the Defiant had with the Dominion... it was also captured and heavily damaged to the point where the Dominion could have easily destroyed it but choose not to in order analyse Commander Sisko and his crew... your point being what? I love how Defiant fanboys seem to forget that but easily bring up about the Odyssey.

Can I also say that denying the Galaxy one of her main features because you don't like it is fundamentally selfish and bigoted, especially when the very FRONT page of this website has a picture of a Galaxy separating on it. False advertising or what?

You kept repeating over and over and over again how the Defiant was crippled in their first encounter as proof that somehow the Defiant isn't a good ship. I just pointed out that the Galaxy class was destroyed in their first encounter with the Dominion. If you can use that to argue against the Defiant then it is equally applicable to any Federation ship including the Galaxy class.


Regarding showing the peacenick pussy whiny side of starfleet since this game is supposedly during or post Dominion War era it makes sense that Starflee had a lot of rebuilding to do and they would definitely focus more on combat ships since they would have lost so many during the war. Frankly I am tired of the pacifist pansies that TNG made them out to be and welcome how the TOS and DS9 (to some degree at least) was willing to show the more visceral side of Starfleet.

That being said I frnakly wish that Galaxies were buildable units just as the Dderidex are still buildable by the Romulans even though they are replaced by the Norexans now. And honestly building Galaxies makes a lot more sense than building Excelsior class ships that originated over 100 years ago in that time line.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 5:37 am

and the First Encounter the Defiant had with the Dominion... it was also captured and heavily damaged to the point where the Dominion could have easily destroyed it but choose not to in order analyse Commander Sisko and his crew... your point being what? I love how Defiant fanboys seem to forget that but easily bring up about the Odyssey.

Can I also say that denying the Galaxy one of her main features because you don't like it is fundamentally selfish and bigoted, especially when the very FRONT page of this website has a picture of a Galaxy separating on it. False advertising or what?

You kept repeating over and over and over again how the Defiant was crippled in their first encounter as proof that somehow the Defiant isn't a good ship. I just pointed out that the Galaxy class was destroyed in their first encounter with the Dominion. If you can use that to argue against the Defiant then it is equally applicable to any Federation ship including the Defiant.



Regarding showing the peacenick pussy whiny side of starfleet since this game is supposedly during or post Dominion War era it makes sense that Starflee had a lot of rebuilding to do and they would definitely focus more on combat ships since they would have lost so many during the war. Frankly I am tired of the pacifist pansies that TNG made them out to be and welcome how the TOS and DS9 (to some degree at least) was willing to show the more visceral side of Starfleet.

"Peacenick Pussy side"... Well thats the problem right there... same with STO, people sticking in their ore for more "pew pew" ship. Basically, you missed the point of Star Trek entirely. They were not pacifists in TNG at all, the Federation was not a "push-over", they defeated the Tzenkethi, the Cardassians, faced down the Borg and the Romulans... all in TNG while they were being "pussy".

At least know what you are talking about before you make statements like that. The Federation in this game are very uninspired when they could actually be adapted to gain bonuses from scouting and exploring the map... just one example. But no, people like you want to see them be warmongers because you think its "cool". I suggest you go see the Mirror Universe, probably more your thing.

DS9 was one of the worst mistakes in Trek History, partly because Sisko was willing to lie, cheat, steal and eventually be complacent in murder, just to achieve his aims. Real role model right there.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 7:06 am

and the First Encounter the Defiant had with the Dominion... it was also captured and heavily damaged to the point where the Dominion could have easily destroyed it but choose not to in order analyse Commander Sisko and his crew... your point being what? I love how Defiant fanboys seem to forget that but easily bring up about the Odyssey.

Can I also say that denying the Galaxy one of her main features because you don't like it is fundamentally selfish and bigoted, especially when the very FRONT page of this website has a picture of a Galaxy separating on it. False advertising or what?

You kept repeating over and over and over again how the Defiant was crippled in their first encounter as proof that somehow the Defiant isn't a good ship. I just pointed out that the Galaxy class was destroyed in their first encounter with the Dominion. If you can use that to argue against the Defiant then it is equally applicable to any Federation ship including the Defiant.



Regarding showing the peacenick pussy whiny side of starfleet since this game is supposedly during or post Dominion War era it makes sense that Starflee had a lot of rebuilding to do and they would definitely focus more on combat ships since they would have lost so many during the war. Frankly I am tired of the pacifist pansies that TNG made them out to be and welcome how the TOS and DS9 (to some degree at least) was willing to show the more visceral side of Starfleet.

"Peacenick Pussy side"... Well thats the problem right there... same with STO, people sticking in their ore for more "pew pew" ship. Basically, you missed the point of Star Trek entirely. They were not pacifists in TNG at all, the Federation was not a "push-over", they defeated the Tzenkethi, the Cardassians, faced down the Borg and the Romulans... all in TNG while they were being "pussy".

At least know what you are talking about before you make statements like that. The Federation in this game are very uninspired when they could actually be adapted to gain bonuses from scouting and exploring the map... just one example. But no, people like you want to see them be warmongers because you think its "cool". I suggest you go see the Mirror Universe, probably more your thing.

DS9 was one of the worst mistakes in Trek History, partly because Sisko was willing to lie, cheat, steal and eventually be complacent in murder, just to achieve his aims. Real role model right there.

Sisko killed or allowed Garak to kill a few Romulans which brought the Romulans into the war thus helping to stall the Dominion Invasion which was going badly for the Feds at the time. Meanwhile we have Picard who had an opportunity to defeat the Borg once and for all but opted not to out of some high minded nonsense thus allowing them to assimilate who knows how many countless species in the years that followed. Which one was worse SIsko allowing an Romulan Senator to be assassinated or Picard allowing for countless millions to die or be assimilated?

TNG turned Starfleet and the Federation into a bunch of insipid moralistic idiots who weren't willing to make difficult decisions and do what was necessary to win. The entirety of humanity was portrayed as a single monolith of people who all acted the same with a few exceptions here and there. STO and DS9 potrayed humanity much more realistically by showing that not everyone acted or believed the same thing. The dynamic of Section 31 was also refreshing as it showed that some people were willing to do anything to win the war even break the established laws.

Pale Moonlight (the episode where Sisko and Garak get the Romulans involved in the war) is in fact one of my favorite episodes of the series and there is literally no "pew pew" combat in it at all. It did however show that not everyone in the Federation was a complete idiot in regards to military or intelligence matters.

The Brits during WW2 allowed their own cities to be bombed by Germans so as not to give away the fact that they had broken their codes and the Allies firebombed cities and killed civilians in large numbers. Wars are NOT won by pussies they are one by the side that is willing to do what it takes to get the job done and the US was willing to drop nuclear weapons on their enemies.

Defeating the Cardassians isn't exactly a triumph considering they were significanlty further behind the Feds technology wise. Look how quickly the Klingons rolled them over when they tried to take over the Cardassians.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 7:44 am

Correction, the Galaxy class in this game has been reduced to being a "gimmick" status for the warp in "gimmick" which you might as well be playing the lottery for. Why can't they just let us BUILD Galaxy classes and not only be able to have a few of them because of the (imo stupid) Federation Warp In Gimmick. No, their too busy letting you construct ships that don't exist like the Phalanx.

Warp-In is arguably the most powerful feature of the Feds. Every four minutes you get up to three ships for no up-front resource cost. It's strong enough that there have been many complaints and demands for it be toned down. With the 30% chance of it appearing each warp-in, there's a strong chance you'll get one in the first couple of pulls.

Considering Fleet Ops is set in the closing years of the 24th century, it's probably not surprising that the Galaxy isn't in serial production any more; the USS Galaxy herself would have been in service for 40 years by that point. Yeah, the class wouldn't have had the production longevity of the Excelsior, but the latter class was likely so far ahead of its time that Starfleet was able to lean on it for way longer than perhaps it should have done, while the Galaxy's true legacy wasn't so much the vessels but instead all the technologies that were developed during the Galaxy Class Starship Development Project.

If you think Saucer Seperation and MVAM is a gimmick, the Federation Warp In Lottery has to be the worst gimmick I've seen for a long time. How about an additional shipyard that lets us actually BUILD those ships.

I think you must have been so upset when I used the word "gimmick" at the start of this thread that you've misunderstood what I said.

I said that separation (saucer sep / MVAM) was regarded unfavourably by the devs, and that the Prometheus likely won't be included as at least one of the project leads considers the ship a gimmick.

DS9 was one of the worst mistakes in Trek History, partly because Sisko was willing to lie, cheat, steal and eventually be complacent in murder, just to achieve his aims. Real role model right there.

I think you missed the subtext of Sisko's monologue at the end of "In the Pale Moonlight". He is full of self-loathing for what he's done, and he's never quite the same again afterwards. I still believe that Section 31 missed a trick when they tried to recruit Bashir rather than Sisko.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 7:56 am

Picard recognized that the Borg has as much right to exist as he did. I think it shows incredible moral character, especially when he could have hated them completely and did. Sisko on the other hand had massive anger issues and risked his ship and his command on MORE then one occasion because he wanted to chase down ONE rogue Maquis that "hurt him".

Picard made a morally refined choice and besides, the Borg are not evil because what they are doing to them and maybe some others is good. Picard realized it is not our right to interfere in the natural evolution of any species, even the Borg. Perhaps if people LISTENED to that EXACT same lesson today, there would not be a wartorn middle east or problems in different parts of the world caused by the U.S.'s cavalier interference in world politics. Its called the Prime Directive.

But like I stated before, I do not really expect you to understand the moral implications of Next Gen because you seem, no offense, like the type that just likes explosions like most mass-media moviegoers. Sisko caused the death of everyone Romulan soldier that entered into the Dominion War... Not to mention he had to ask his "parents" to send the "big bad Dominion ships" away in the Wormhole.

Oh and don't start the whole "deep and meaningful monologue" thing at the end of "In Pale Moonlight" because he basically destroys any credibility or "self-loathing" by going... "I think I can live with it...". What an a**hole.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 10:14 am

Picard only did that because he started to feel sorry for a single drone that got damaged. Picard condemed countless billions to the same ungodly horrors he experienced because he felt sorry for the uncaring and unfeeling machine-abominations that spent over 200 thousand years making their goal of xenocide/slavery very obvious. The fact that they're not evil doesn't change the fact that their entire existence is a threat to every species in the universe and they cannot live alongside others.

The Borg are not a race, are not natural, do not have a 'natural course' and lack even a single redeeming quality. What he did was cruel not only to the Borgs victims, but also to the Borg themselves (as he should have known).

'Moral' and 'Correct' do not always coincide. Speaking as a TNG fan, that was the most retarded choice Picard ever made. Siskos actions at least saved the Federation from being enslaved, Picard can make no such claim.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Picard recognized that the Borg has as much right to exist as he did. I think it shows incredible moral character, especially when he could have hated them completely and did. Sisko on the other hand had massive anger issues and risked his ship and his command on MORE then one occasion because he wanted to chase down ONE rogue Maquis that "hurt him".

Picard made a morally refined choice and besides, the Borg are not evil because what they are doing to them and maybe some others is good. Picard realized it is not our right to interfere in the natural evolution of any species, even the Borg. Perhaps if people LISTENED to that EXACT same lesson today, there would not be a wartorn middle east or problems in different parts of the world caused by the U.S.'s cavalier interference in world politics. Its called the Prime Directive.

Well, as we went totally off topic, it became a pretty interesting discussion about moral decisions, wich is pretty cool imo and proves that trek makes people think more than other "products" from today, wich usually seem to have more depth to them (won't name any more modern series as there are plenty of them) but instead present you with a pre-cooked conclusion wich you supposed to identify youself with.

To add something to your argument and to think about:

First of all I like both (TNG and DS9) pretty much equally, but after all in my opinion there might be a little flaw with the so beloved "Prime Directive". In trek the good guys always seem to have the moral highground of beaing peaceful, generous, helpful and in general very polite towards pretty much everybody. Wich is totally cool.

But when it comes to make hard meaningful decisions they have thier awesome "prime directive" to not to interfere with natural evolution.

Isn't natural evolution the most cruel and random thing on earth? Look at the nature; animals constantly eating-raping each other the strong lives the weak perishes and to add insult to injury it has a huge random factor of genetically advantegous and disadvantegous mutations.

All humanities greatest achievements in the past 5000 years works aginst evolution pretty much. Medicines, hospitals, laws, police, social safety net keeping alive and trying to give an acceptable life for people with birth defects. Even the most basic things like clothing in winter.

So when you think about it as a human the morally appealing qualities are beaing: tolerant, helpful, generous and with the "prime directive" you just throw all out in the window and let the strong (wich doesnt nescessary means more advanced think about viruses...) prevail?

posted on October 15th, 2013, 2:01 pm

Oh and don't start the whole "deep and meaningful monologue" thing at the end of "In Pale Moonlight" because he basically destroys any credibility or "self-loathing" by going... "I think I can live with it...". What an a**hole.

"Deep and meaningful"? Sisko's disgust at himself is evident from Brooks' performance.

Sisko isn't the first Starfleet officer to make a dubious moral choice; normally the stories of these choices in the various Treks revolves around their negative consequences some 20-30 years after the event. This is a rare example of the story of the choice; the viewer is left to contemplate what could go wrong in the future. Indeed, at least one novel deals with this.

posted on October 15th, 2013, 3:15 pm

Speaking of the Prime Directive, which I agree is basically a cop out, has any captain in the shows actually been punished for violating it? I know Kirk was demoted for rescuing Spock. I think I remember reading that Kirk violated the PD 3,924 times and even Picard violated the PD although far less frequently.