The Breen Avatar Ships

posted on September 7th, 2006, 6:15 pm

Well peeps, we've has it for just about every other "major" ship out there now its the breens turn to be under scrutiny .
TBH, i think the battleship is quite a bit stronger than it should be, as it stands it is arguably inside the top 2 strongest ships in the PR pack. Im talking for raw power (offensive + defensive strength), i mean these are the same things that were literally being picked apart by allied fleets after the dampening weapon was useless.

So here is what i propose,
i) lower both shield & hull points to be more along the lines of a battle cruiser ( perhaps slightly more than a galaxy class (although even that is debatable))
ii) take away the phaser and replace it with another torpedo, to make a total of 2 torpedoes (3 if your feeling generous).
iii) here is the crucial part (although pointless if you havent done number 1), modify the special torpedo so it disables all systems except lifesupport, for a specified period, 5 seconds seems reasonable to me.

i bring this up, simply because i refuse to accept that the breen ships are that beefy. Without their tech they simply wouldn't be able to live with the others, as seen on the series.

Also may i take this time to say, "Bring on the Dreadnaught"

[Anonymous]

posted on September 7th, 2006, 6:56 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on September 8th, 2006, 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I knew one of you is gonna pick up on the one thing that actually gives the dominion any firepower. Now to anwser you:

Well peeps, we've has it for just about every other "major" ship out there now its the breens turn to be under scrutiny biggrin.gif .
TBH, i think the battleship is quite a bit stronger than it should be, as it stands it is arguably inside the top 2 strongest ships in the PR pack.

Descent, Tavara and Phalanx are all stronger. Sovie and NeghVar are equal (it depends on the task at hand to decide which one is stronger)

Im talking for raw power (offensive + defensive strength), i mean these are the same things that were literally being picked apart by allied fleets after the dampening weapon was useless.

Actually in the series only the breen cruiser makes an appearance Breen Battlship is a FO made up ship so they dictate what specs it will have
Also that "allies beating the crap out of dominion" in the last season must be taken a bit reservly. The writers knew the show must end after season 7 so they had to end it quckly and the only way to do that is to make the dominion ships have the strenght of runabout, same applies for the breen ships.

So here is what i propose,
i) lower both shield & hull points to be more along the lines of a battle cruiser ( perhaps slightly more than a galaxy class (although even that is debatable))
ii) take away the phaser and replace it with another torpedo, to make a total of 2 torpedoes (3 if your feeling generous).
iii) here is the crucial part (although pointless if you havent done number 1), modify the special torpedo so it disables all systems except lifesupport, for a specified period, 5 seconds seems reasonable to me.

i) So that would mean that the V13 is the best ship the Dominion can build, ****** great. That ship dies BEFORE it even destroys the shields on a NeghVar or Sovie and if it werent for its special weapon it would be quite useless to build.
So you want the breen battleships stats lowered to that of a galaxy which is a free ship. Give me a ****** break. Optec tells us b4 that Dominion basically dont really have a cruiser and now you want to screw up their battleships too? -.-

ii)Im up for that, especially since the torp on a breen battleship is damn strong Phaser is secondary anyway....

iii) I dont mind that, though I do not see the point. If it can disable weapons and shields why cant it disable life support? :S
These special weapons will be reworked in v3 anyway, so we will see what happens. Id actually be more in favor to replacing its special weapon since the others have already developed counter-measures against it

i bring this up, simply because i refuse to accept that the breen ships are that beefy. Without their tech they simply wouldn't be able to live with the others, as seen on the series.

Again, breen battleships werent in the series.....
I'll take this opportunity to mention the Breen battleships costs and build time which are as big, if not even bigger than other ships that can compare to it. Remember also that this is an avatar ship which costs a lot a takes a long time to build. Avalon comes to mind which is only slightly weaker than the breen battleship and it is FREE. Phalanx also comes to mind which is considrably stronger than the breen battleship...
See there are loads of other ships that "unbalanced" much more so than the breen battleship

Also may i take this time to say, "Bring on the Dreadnaught" whistling.gif

Agree with u on this part



Note: I anwser this not only as a fan whose favorite race is the dominion, but also as a fan to whom balance between races is very important.
I feel the way I feel simply because atm it seems that dominions most effective strategy is to mass up destroyers and hope for the best(also add a few battleships and "cruisers" here and there of course ) That may be canon, but please also mind the BALANCE between the races. And right now the Breen give that to the dominion

posted on September 7th, 2006, 7:29 pm

well ryan has a point the breen minus the dampening weapon are crap

but u cant change it as at the moment it would make the Dom crap

[Cpt Ryan]

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:24 pm

Last edited by Cpt Ryan on September 7th, 2006, 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@baron, lol iand i knew you were going to be the first to reply to this, (well either you or Rhaz anyway )
lol, admittedly i did forget about the phalanx (i meant the tavara and B Battleship were top 2), but both the phalanx & tavara cost credits so....
No way can the sovie on FO beat the breen battleship, unless it was near a black hole the breens shields and hull is just too much for the sovie to handle as it stands. The negh'var is not a match simply because its weapon range is too short, an undeniable fact i believe.

Actually in the series only the breen cruiser makes an appearance   Breen Battlship is a FO made up ship so they dictate what specs it will have

Actually the model used for the battleship IS in fact the cruiser, or rather the Breen frigate as it is more correctly referred to

i) So that would mean that the V13 is the best ship the Dominion can build, ****** great. That ship dies BEFORE it even destroys the shields on a NeghVar or Sovie and if it werent for its special weapon it would be quite useless to build.

are you kidding the V13 is perhaps my fav Dom ship, and i find it plenty usefull with its 218 hull points and 404 shield points. Plus Optec has also said that the Dreadnaught was planned for the Dominion right, so that should quench your thirst for raw power.

Again, breen battleships werent in the series.....

lol, follow the link up there

Phalanx also comes to mind which is considrably stronger than the breen battleship...

yes but, 1 it costs credits and 2 compared to its offensive strength, its defence sucks.

See there are loads of other ships that "unbalanced" much more so than the breen battleship

they have all been disected, now its the breens turn

@4 o 11, yeah i know these are just suggestions for the future

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:37 pm

Yeah i agree i do want the breen Nerfed but when the dread is out

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:37 pm

The Breen ship in the show was a frigate, true.
It was fairly week, superior to a miranda class, and perhaps the sabre class.
About on par in my oppinion with the canon Steam Runner, and a slightly better vessel than that of the Bug, but mostly due to the skills of Breen Pilots, and not hardware.

The Breen did not on screen commit any battleships to the front.

It is my oppinion that their battleships would at least have some large array of conventional weapons, because they would need alot more than those wimpy frigates to stop Federation, Romulan and Klingon ships that frequently attempt to penetrate their star cluster.

Link to Breen information.

In the movie Generations, Breen Disuruptors are classed as type 3 the same type utilized by Klingon Vorcha class ships and Romulan Cruisers of the TNG era, which would lead me to believe that due to the unsopohisticated nature of the Breen Confederacy's smaller vessels, that they have some larger platform capable of mounting these conventional weapons, naturally a Battleship.

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:41 pm

Yeah i agree with you on that but the breen arent that strong otherwise they would have been a much more powerfull race in the alpha quadrant

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:42 pm

They have a small number of ships, that is their lacking of strength, they have maybe a hundred ships.

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:44 pm

Hmm that would make it alot more understandable but i still want the BB nerfed

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:53 pm

i dunno, i think they have far more than they lead anyone to believe, such is their secretive nature.

Plus the bit about the disruptor... the type 3 is of the hand held pistol style variety (i think thats confirmed in the episode with spock, picard & Data captured by sela when they try to escape (but i know i heard it from somewhere if not there.))
the Vorcha uses the type 10 & 12 varieties, according to DITL.

@ 4 of 11, why dont you want the dread? it is a must have for the dominion forces.

posted on September 7th, 2006, 10:54 pm

I meant when the dread is released sorry if u didnt get what i meant

posted on September 8th, 2006, 12:05 am

The Breen units buildable under the Breen Avatar are results of a founder sent to the breen homeworld to assist them in building up a fleet capable of controlling the alpha quadrant after it has been conquered - notice that at this point they did not even think of the possibility of defeat. while it turns out that the dominion might lose the war the breen fall back to their favourit hobby - isolation. the romulans would be proud of.
in the mean time the yards orbiting breen planets started building up breen starships suited for war - still not officially informed that the war is actually over.
cause of this quite special situation the dominion-breen avatar units might not exactly "feel" like you think they should from the series. that and much more will be explained in the Fleet Operations story, if we ever find a start to tell it

the breen battleship model, btw, is still a placeholder and will be replaced by a new design. the breen frigate as you know it from the shows will come in as a sperate npr unit.
I will have a look at the balancing again but from my current point of view the breen avatar looks okay ^_^ still open for a discussion about it, of course

posted on September 8th, 2006, 4:56 am

The Breen units buildable under the Breen Avatar are results of a founder sent to the breen homeworld to assist them in building up a fleet capable of controlling the alpha quadrant after it has been conquered - notice that at this point they did not even think of the possibility of defeat. while it turns out that the dominion might lose the war the breen fall back to their favourit hobby - isolation. the romulans would be proud of.
in the mean time the yards orbiting breen planets started building up breen starships suited for war - still not officially informed that the war is actually over.
cause of this quite special situation the dominion-breen avatar units might not exactly "feel" like you think they should from the series. that and much more will be explained in the Fleet Operations story, if we ever find a start to tell it

the breen battleship model, btw, is still a placeholder and will be replaced by a new design. the breen frigate as you know it from the shows will come in as a sperate npr unit.
I will have a look at the balancing again but from my current point of view the breen avatar looks okay happy.gif still open for a discussion about it, of course

Well at least someone is on my side It helps he is one of the most important persons in FO development too

No way can the sovie on FO beat the breen battleship, unless it was near a black hole the breens shields and hull is just too much for the sovie to handle as it stands. The negh'var is not a match simply because its weapon range is too short, an undeniable fact i believe.

When we put a sovie vs breen in the balancing thread breen won this fight but it had like 4 hull remaining and u also have to take it into consideration that its special weapons disabled sovies weapons 2 times, so thats 10sec without fireing a single shot...
NeghVar vs Breen Battleship was where NeghVar won So be quiet
As I said they are roughly equal in strenght, some of them get the edge in different tasks. For instance:
I believe the Sovie would be better vs cruisers or destroyers because of its stronger phaser.
NeghVar is just the ultimate battleship killer with its very strong torps and special weapon
Breen battleship is similar to NeghVar, but with long range. So I believe its best used vs stations or **** like that.

@baron, lol iand i knew you were going to be the first to reply to this, (well either you or Rhaz anyway tongue.gif )
lol, admittedly i did forget about the phalanx (i meant the tavara and B Battleship were top 2), but both the phalanx & tavara cost credits so....

Yeah they cost credits, so does the descent btw. But do u honestly believe the breen battleship can really stand up to any of those vessles? Please..... They are just out of its class. Im not saying it shouldnt be like that, your just overrating the bb.
Its closest match would be the phalanx, though it would still win comftrably.

QUOTE
Actually in the series only the breen cruiser makes an appearance wink.gif  Breen Battlship is a FO made up ship so they dictate what specs it will have
Actually the model used for the battleship IS in fact the cruiser, or rather the Breen frigate as it is more correctly referred to tongue.gif

Yeah my bad on that one, listen to Optec tho.....

QUOTE
Again, breen battleships werent in the series.....
lol, follow the link up there laugh.gif

Look anwser above

QUOTE
i) So that would mean that the V13 is the best ship the Dominion can build, ****** great. That ship dies BEFORE it even destroys the shields on a NeghVar or Sovie and if it werent for its special weapon it would be quite useless to build.
are you kidding the V13 is perhaps my fav Dom ship, and i find it plenty usefull with its 218 hull points and 404 shield points. Plus Optec has also said that the Dreadnaught was planned for the Dominion right, so that should quench your thirst for raw power.

The supply requirements for this vessle are tremendous and its quite frankly not worth it.
BTW, shield and hull points of other battleships:
Defiant: 459 shields 153 hull
Sovie: 575 shields 192 hull
NeghVar: 454 shields 194 hull
Cahlaer: 339 shields 145 hull
D'Deridex: 422 shields 181 hull
Eresis: 307 shields 132 hull
Norexan: 423 shields 181 hull

So basically it has better shields than Cahlaer and Eresis, which was to be expected due to their cost n ****. Is about at the level of D'deridex and Norexan(with Rommies having a lot faster shield recharge rate) Defiant, NeghVar and Sovie are way out of its class.
What I conclude from this is that the ship is barely on par with the 2 main Rommie battleships(1 of which u claimed in the Defiant thread is a waste of space). Also keep on mind that Rommies have the tavara to provide them with firepower when they need it and they get very good avatar bonuses with Mijural. Mind also that Rommies have very good cruisers with their generix ships.
Now where does that leave the Dominion? Simply the suckiest battleship of all the races, weakest cruisers but with the ability to mass out destroyers. Huray for the founders!
But of course all of you are concerned about the above average strenght of the breen battleship. I mean ****, if they suck at everything already, take that away from them too Let us all beat them into submission everytime we play against them!

QUOTE
Phalanx also comes to mind which is considrably stronger than the breen battleship...
yes but, 1 it costs credits and 2 compared to its offensive strength, its defence sucks.

1 credit, which means u can freely build 20 of them - really a limiting factor isnt it Let me tell you something, if you have enough resources and time to build 20 phalanxes, so u max out your credits, nothing will be able to stop you. And I dont care how many breen battleships your opponent builds....

Hmm that would make it alot more understandable but i still want the BB nerfed tongue.gif

See my replies to Ryan.

posted on September 8th, 2006, 10:10 am

well im too tired to answer everything atm so i'll just answer this one for now:

1 credit, which means u can freely build 20 of them - really a limiting factor isnt it  Let me tell you something, if you have enough resources and time to build 20 phalanxes, so u max out your credits, nothing will be able to stop you. And I dont care how many breen battleships your opponent builds....

when you compare that for an almost unlimited number of breen battleships (a more than likely prospect)....
plus if that is the case then the phalanx is hardly its closest match.
i'll respond to the rest a bit later.

posted on September 8th, 2006, 12:11 pm

well, you'r preety much right on everything, the dominion don't have good battleships, but they have the capability to mass destroyers and use them as torpedo bait during combat. They also should become stronger with the introduction of a new battleship, but they will still lack middle class ships, but i think that won't be a problem.