Talon/venture ideas

posted on June 11th, 2010, 8:18 pm

Venture class:

simple idea, i think the venture's cloak detect should only be a normal cloak detect ping.

the venture releases one less ping than now.

and the pings get gradually larger in range, like the scan, so the first ping is rather small range, requiring the venture to get in closer than now. and the last ping is larger. so if your enemy is really not paying attention they will pay dearly, but if they are being careful they can expect not to be punished completely.

for later game maybe the venture could get a second, more expensive refit, to grant it the advanced ping, to track down the advanced cloaks available later game.

or forget the venture ever having advanced ping and give advanced ping to the nebula sensor variant.


Some ideas for the talon class

currently i think it's a little OP, has an advanced cloak which is hard to detect for some and easy for others. and can be cheaply refitted to become the best cloak detection available for the cost.

my first proposal is that the default talon only has a basic cloak, just like most romulan ships.

perhaps therefore have it given two refits.

the first refit gives it the advanced cloak. so that when your enemies get advanced cloak detect u can upgrade and get better cloaks. this refit could be expensive, or it could need a research from the upgrade facility maybe etc to make it harder to get to in the early game.

the second refit is similar to the current refit, giving it cloak detect. but it works less powerful than now.

when refitted it would get a standard ping, not advanced ping. this ping would have a slightly reduced range. it would also not be automatic. it would be a special weapon ping similar to the venture, but not as good. each push of the special weapon would give 1 ping only. this ping would drain maybe 60%-80% of the talon's SPW energy so it could be triggered again in about 10-15 seconds, then you would have to wait for recharge. the SPW would only give the ping, no sensor range increase.

again in the late game, a more expensive refit could be researched at the upgrade facility to give it advanced ping cloak detect. or maybe another romulan unit could get that. maybe a rhienn sensor refit?

also another idea for the talon

mijural's shrikes already serve a basic decloaking use, they sometimes disable weapons system on destroyers, leaving them unable to cloak. so maybe mijural could lose cloak detect for the talon, or have her talon cloak detect be less attractive (cost increase/nerfing etc) but give her shrike manual targetting like the brel, it seems to have similar disruptors to the brel, so maybe the shrike tactical officers could get manual targetting. or only officer level shrikes get manual targetting.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 8:21 pm

I support the first Talon idea. I assume it's a 1-or-the-other style of refit?

posted on June 11th, 2010, 8:29 pm

Oof 

The Venture change would utterly eliminate Federation cloak detect abilities. Not a fan in the slightest. However, I do enjoy the idea of a second research for a Graviton Ping.

I'm not particularly against the Talon change - but since they only get the one cloak detect throughout their entire tech tree, I will oppose it for now. Plus, the Romulans are masters of cloak and cloak detection we presume. I would however also enjoy the idea of a second refit for a Graviton Ping.

With Shrikes... that's such a relatively small percentage chance and really I'd rather Manual Targeting stay with the Klingons as their unique form. Not to mention Shrikes are expensive.

Remember that we will be seeing more cloak detection, not less, so simply taking cloak detection away from a few units is really nasty. I would love to see real tiers of cloak detection however, and that's why I am in favor of the second refit/research for Graviton Pings.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 8:38 pm

@tyler, yes they can only have the cloak refit or the anti cloak refit. and the anti cloak refit loses cloak just like now.

@dom the venture idea wouldnt eliminate their cloak detect, it would just make it so that they cant decloak as easy as now. so the venture will still be useful, just easier to avoid. as right now its very hard to avoid. a venture sitting in a base can prevent base scouting. just trigger it every now and then. and with a fleet it puts out a very large ping, which detects most of the enemy fleet. a smaller ping would mean u would have to try harder to get the decloak. usually if the first venture ping doesnt get anything, then the later ones probably wont.

about the talon idea, as u said, there will be more cloak detect options introduced, so the talon nerf wouldnt hurt too bad, as later on there will be other cloak detect, just they wont have awesome cloak detect from the start. as right now a ping every 10 seconds is amazing, put a scout on patrol around your base and you dont even have to try.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on June 11th, 2010, 8:43 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on June 11th, 2010, 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's very easy to avoid in fact. A ship that must stop to use a medium range ping is very easy to get around. Woopdeedoo, you stopped base scouting - Dominion can do that with a single station  . Cloak should be powerful, but it is much too powerful right now  . A smaller ping would mean you won't detect anything in fact, only with a tremendous amount of luck and lag.

I think you overestimate the skills of the Talon - putting it on patrol is akin to giving your opponent a free kill. It also offers some severe disadvantages, since it lets your opponent know exactly where your fleet is - if you want the Talon to be useful, you'll keep it with your fleet (unless you are just scouting your base).

EDIT: so, if the Romulans don't get additional cloak detection systems, then you are saying that the current method for them is ok?

posted on June 11th, 2010, 8:52 pm

venture is fast, if u see fleet cloaking, u can get venture to the area u guess they are at, and quite easily get a decloak. a lot of people cloak and forget.

by patrol around your base, i meant patrol around your base, not around the rest of the map lol. what's the point of decloaking an enemy if all you have is a scout to eat them with? even against unshielded hull it wont get a kill lol. thats why i said around base and not everywhere.

talons are pretty good. ping every 10 seconds, and doesnt break the bank. plus the ping is advanced.

the current system does well for decloaking, but its kinda easy, so i want the romulans to get more cloak detect, but the talon to be less cool. so that building other cloak detect is necessary.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 9:14 pm

You still have to micro the venture, and have built them, and you can see where the venture is headed and move somewhere else.  You also still have about 3 seconds before it actually pings.  Cloak detection got a lot more micro intensive this patch.  Let's not make it any more difficult.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 9:31 pm

Indeed Mal .


Talons are good, but they are not the end all. They still cost 461 dil, which is more than all Romie destroyers - certainly nothing to sneeze at in the early game. The graviton ping of course makes it more difficult to ambush - and rightly so! Romulan defenses are hard to set up, and miners are exceedingly frail.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:05 pm

a talon can stop nearly all scouting of your base if properly used. which is a bit too much for me. it just seems too much too early for me. this is available right from the start as well. with pings every 10 seconds. at least with the venture u have to wait for SPW energy recharge.

i understand the romulans would be good at countering cloak, but if they get given any more cloak detect without losing some then cloaking will be nearly impossible against them. kinda like before pings when the borg assim matrix could cloak detect anywhere it liked, making cloaking practically worthless.

the venture should be micro intensive, the feds never had cloak. if u are skilled with your venture it will pay off. sometimes the mere threat of a venture cloak detect is enough.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:17 pm

a talon can stop nearly all scouting of your base if properly used. which is a bit too much for me. it just seems too much too early for me. this is available right from the start as well. with pings every 10 seconds. at least with the venture u have to wait for SPW energy recharge.

No it can't.   Your cloaked scout can see the talon and move away, because the talon refit can't cloak.  And the romulan player can't control the ping, so the scout can pass by the cloaked scout just as easily without pinging it.

i understand the romulans would be good at countering cloak, but if they get given any more cloak detect without losing some then cloaking will be nearly impossible against them. kinda like before pings when the borg assim matrix could cloak detect anywhere it liked, making cloaking practically worthless.

I played multiplayer back in those days, and the borg ping didn't make cloaking useless.  It made cloak retreats difficult, but it wasn't long before all races could do it as well.  That's why cloaking and detection has changed (and is continuing to change), to be made more interesting.  

the venture should be micro intensive, the feds never had cloak. if u are skilled with your venture it will pay off. sometimes the mere threat of a venture cloak detect is enough.

I'm glad we agree.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:22 pm

so your patrolling talon scout, which u are not microing at all, has forced them to be super micro intensive with their scout. i would call that a win for the talon, they spend all their time focussing on the scout to avoid it getting killed, u go munch their miners lol. then their non moving scout will probably get eaten too. the talon releases a ping every ten seconds, with no button to push, that means your enemy will be focussing constantly on their scout to avoid getting unlucky and being pinged. the most likely result is that the talon makes the enemy move their scout to a position where they get very little intel, which is another win, since they dont know what you're doing.

u can keep cloaked unrefitted talon near fleet, then when enemy retreats, decloak and refit talon and find enemy lol

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:24 pm

u can keep cloaked unrefitted talon near fleet, then when enemy retreats, decloak and refit talon and find enemy lol

It takes it 10 seconds after refitting

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:27 pm

If the talon is set to patrol, then it's doing a very clear route.  Just put your cloaked scout somewhere the talon is not patrolling.  And if you do get "caught", just build another scout.  They're cheap!

You can even turn the tables and pop their talon with your harassment fleet, when the unmicroed talon moves away from the starbase.  The refitted talon ends up being over 500 dilithium, a decent prize for any cloaker.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:35 pm

It takes it 10 seconds after refitting

really? i thought i saw it happen quickly once? ok then adjust the strat to refit before going in. still pretty cool.

plus u can then go sweep all your exps with it.

@mal, simply change the patrol route every now and then, its a lot less micro for u to sweep your bases with talon than it is for enemy to avoid it. most players will avoid going near a base with a talon. because if they dont watch it constantly then the talon might decloak it. a ping every 10 seconds is really nice.

u get given the first talon for free as well. with easily enough res to refit it as needed.

the romulans will get more cloak detect, so the talon shouldnt stay as good as it is.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:39 pm

@Myles:  I see the logic behind your argument, but I think you're giving just a BIT too much credit to the Talon.  It's not the end all cloak detect (mid-late game the Dominion one is better ) and the Talon refits can be destroyed, driven away, or CAPTURED !!!

  I've only found them to be entirely disruptive to a cloak retreat, but even then you just have to decloak your ships and the automatic fire from your retreating vessels should be enough to force it to repair.


  PLEASE don't ask to nerf the Fed scout.  It's excellent as it is and is EXTREMELY difficult to use properly against cloaked ships as people know that when one is around they should expect a ping (and stay away).