SFC Requirement

posted on December 17th, 2009, 5:15 am

  Let the shitstorm begin:

I have been feeling lately that the Mayson Avatar should have both the Science Station AND Starfleet Engineering required as pre-requisites to building Starfleet Command.

I ask this because Mayson is granted the avatar boon of having a 25% reduced construction time as he is the early-game avatar.  However, as we all know about Mayson, he never builds the early game ships that are granted another bonus: increased defensive value for Antares yard vessels.  Trouble is that the only thing Mayson will ever build early game is the Norway, the Saber, and if you're a turd who feels Mayson just isn't good enough, the Canaveral.  This is because Starfleet Engineering is not-required for Starfleet command.

  Causing Engineering to be required first will only cost Mayson a few things:  A small amount of time more to be eligible to complete SFC, and a little bit more in resources.  Resources-wise there should be only a minor difference as the extra time requried to build Engineering should not prevent him from building SFC the second Engineering is done.  In my estimation he should have SFC up by about the same time Risner does.  Maybe only slightly later.

  This will also encourage a Mayson player to consider the reduced ship numbers he will have if he tries to rely ONLY on Warp-ins.  Right now he can have the Warp-ins ready before most other races have even a handful of destroyers and has the ability to put them anywhere.  This change will cause him to very seriously consider creating smaller vessels before doing so.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 5:54 am

Hey!  I was going to post something like this!   Anyway, I would like to see something like this done, even if it was for both avatars.  It would really be useful in reigning Mayson in a little. 

Right now he can have the Warp-ins ready before most other races have even a handful of destroyers and has the ability to put them anywhere.

This is especially true on larger maps where the expansion is far away.  Or in team games two mayson feds will send warp ins at the same place and destroy expansions in the early game before your team mate can react.  Then they're all like "Har Har, we are teh bestest playerz in teh wurld!"

Also, during the Federation Redo that will eventually come up, I wouldn't mind seeing warp in being pushed further into the tech tree.  While I'm not exactly keen on this specific example, something like warp in requiring a lvl 2 chassis upgrade before you could use it.  I'm not suggesting that's how it should be done, but something along those lines that makes warp come along either late in the early stages of the game, or in the middle game would be nice.  This would give players a chance to actually build mining stations and some defenses.

While it is true that warp in rush can be defeated by a skilled opponent, it requires a lot more from the defending player than just clicking "send victory fleet here".

posted on December 17th, 2009, 6:20 am

Glad that at least the first response was something positive! 

  Optec had responded to this kind of idea already stating that he did not intend Warp-in to be a game-ender, but did intend for it to be an integral part of gameplay.  I dig it!

  However, I feel that because Warp-in comes so quickly in the tech-tree it is almost a mandate.  Right now, a station like SFC pays for itself MORE the longer it exists.  Thus getting it as soon as possible means that it is the most efficient.  Plus it's free ships every 3 minutes!  Why not get it first?  Since no one can really attack you before you've got it, there's no risk involved in teching straight to it.

  Now ... for example: if you had to have the Eraudi Yard built or Chassis 2 researched before Warp-ins were available you'd certainly consider your situation a bit more before trying to tech straight to free ships.

I think even Chassis 1 would be adequate because you'd have to build Engineering and you'd be presented with easy, cheap, and very strong destroyers as well as the ability to build SFC.  SOMEthing prevent the Feds from having the added resources not spent on ships to expand.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 6:37 am

Yep.  Push it back into the tech tree a little further, maybe shorten the timer on it if it needs to be balanced, and call it a day.   Actually, I think there's a fair amount of people who would agree it needs to be changed a little.  I really don't see too many people disagreeing with this concept.  And if they do, they probably don't play online, so they don't know what an early warp in rush feels like on the receiving end.  At least in this next patch, pulses will do a little more damage.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 6:49 am

Aye.  The Warp-ins are supposed to be aging ships that respond to an EMERGENCY.  They are almost like a "last resort" that they call outdated ships to provide an instant and rapid boost to an offensive or defensive force.  Warp-ins should not be something meant to provide the BULK of a player's forces.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 3:49 pm

I think I could go along with the thought here - I always thought that the avatars need to be a bit different from each other than they currently are, and Mayson gets really nice early game boosts... but he almost never uses them at the moment. In almost all games it is possible to skip ALL Antares Yard vessels (well, perhaps 1-2 Sabers at the beginning) without any impediment until you've got a fair number of Warp Ins, and Excel II's, and you wish to build Remores. At that point (finally) you'll go for Akiras. As the most efficient battle strategy... there really is no point to use any Antares Yard vessels until that point. The only exception is against Borg, where you'll build Intrepids regardless. Having Warp In pushed a bit further back - maybe you even have to build the Eraudi Yard, or like Mal suggested, research Chassis 2 - would be nice. I think that only forcing a player to build SF Engineering wouldn't stop the mad rush, but putting an added constraint, such as research, would.

Not sure if this is possible now, but I'd almost like Warp In to only be called where shroud and fog are down (aka, you have a unit in the area). That would effectively slow down harassment on big maps, as you'd have to build scouts that stay in the area actually.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 6:22 pm

I dig that too, Dominus.  I feel like Warp-in "in character" is supposed to be emergency help, not a willy-nilly strike force.  Now if you had a scout or a small force somewhere making a desperate and much needed assault, that's different, but it would require you to have ships there for sure.

  And yes ... I think that seeing as Mayson is the early game avatar, he misses quite a bit by generally skipping the early game vessels and going straight to mid-late game Excel II's.  Even if engineering was required only it still wouldn't slow his mad rush to Warp-ins down that much ...


  I mean playing a skilled Mayson player is really a difficult thing to do and requires VERY SPECIFIC tactics in order to win.  That's no fun .  And there's a reason why new players online only ever play Mayson Feds

posted on December 17th, 2009, 7:35 pm

sfc got a slightly increased construction time in the next patch

posted on December 17th, 2009, 7:48 pm

Well Optec you always beat us to the punch!

  But do you think that it will solve the problem of Mayson being able to rely on them while essentially ignoring Engineering?  Even if the Norway and Canaveral simply required Engineering to be built (nothing researched) would create a reason for Mayson to be FORCED to actually build it.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 7:52 pm

Yes... seems like all this will do is weaken Risner and really not hurt Mayson.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 8:20 pm

Agreed.  It's not necessarily that the Warp-ins alone are the biggest threat.  Most races can handle 1 warp-in.  The issue is that because they can be accessed so quickly and with so little else having been built, they can easily act as the bulk of a fleet by the 3rd Warp-in while resources and supplies are spent on expanding, putting up turrets, and teching to Excelsior II's.  Risner does not NEED her SFC pushed back, but to be honest I don't think it would hurt her too much.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 8:29 pm

I don't know - her early game is already the weakest of any faction in the game... to push the Warp In back, which is her strong point there, might be tough to handle.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 8:48 pm

It is weak, yes, but she can produce excellent vessels in good numbers if she gets a pair of Antares Yards up and running.

  But yes, I do agree that she relies on Warp-in to essentially MAKE her early game forces.  My main concern is just Mayson.  That's why I suggested that it be a specific change for Mayson alone.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 8:57 pm

What if after you built SFC, there was a "research" involved?  So you build sfc, then select, "uplink to subspace relays?"  This simulates a new sfc outpost tying its communication into the already established communications network, which is how it would call vessels into the sector.  Sort of like the time it takes to add a new phone line into the house and properly connect things into the "switch board".  This time could be altered, so that maybe Risner gets a decreased research time on it, or whatever.

I think this makes sense, and once its established its FTL relay, it's allowed to send distress calls to send ships in.  It could either be free or cheap, and would be easy to balance.

posted on December 17th, 2009, 9:08 pm

I think we should enlist Yandon to help us record several factions playing against Mayson.  Show how much each other avatar can field by the time the Warp-in arrives.  Keep a tally of resources at different intervals.  Then we can edit them together quickly to show how they compare.