Rework the Sovereign for a different role.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 11:24 am

as for the holodeck that was a joke.
but yes. it was installed for no reason whatsoever. no drills could be made in there. the point stands.

do you remember the voyager episode where tuvok is orientating the maquis in the beginning. he has them face large numbers of enemies, three romulans uncloak and blow them to bits. they boldly fight mock battle after mock battle, and eventually tells them, the correct choice is to retreat. it was a nice show. although that's all i remember from it.

no.. there is nooo conceivably imaginable reason at all to have holodecks on a warship(Which can be used for training AS WELL as recreation).... .... .....

?

[godsvoice]

posted on October 14th, 2011, 11:27 am

Last edited by godsvoice on October 14th, 2011, 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

copied paste.... quote etc

"The 5th Disc — Star Trek Evolutions

As with the TOS set, there is a bonus disc, this time it contains 7 extra documentaries about the Star Trek movie universe.

The Evolution of the Enterprise — A walkthrough of various Enterprise ships rendered in CG. A narrator gives an overview of what we know about the missions of the ship. Trek designer John Eaves is interviewed about the different designs."

... i took the time to google it. although i didn't copy the link, its easy enough to find.

and in there, it says what I said.. but probably better.

I'm pretty sure the sovereigns a battleship/warship whatever. not defending the context of what was literally said in this post so far. but it was made for the borg... for sure. they new about borg since Q and enterprise D, and they knew they were a problem

[Anonymous]

posted on October 14th, 2011, 11:55 am

Last edited by Anonymous on October 14th, 2011, 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lol 3 walls of text for the price of 1. no time to reply now, so reserving this spot for my reply later.

---

EDIT: decided to put my reply in a new post

(i didnt really decide to, i just did it before realising i had this post reserved.)

posted on October 14th, 2011, 12:29 pm

Picard needed the holodecks installed on the Enterprise so that he could:

:guns: 

posted on October 14th, 2011, 2:15 pm

dang.. are we having the sovvey dread debate again?

[Anonymous]

posted on October 14th, 2011, 4:57 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on October 14th, 2011, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Do you own the dvds of all four TNG shows?

It has a documentary on them. It outlines the producers design of the ship.

If you buy the four set dvd of all tng episodes, it has it all in there. I am holding it in my hand as we speak.

Google something like: Star Trek Evolutions: Moments in star trek history

This exclusive bonus disc features an all new collection of footage and revealing insights from various fimakes as they memorialize their favourite moments of start trek history... bla bla bla detailed look at the evolution of the U.S.S. Enterprise... in which it describes them all, ending with the Sovereign. and then more bla bla bal, and one part I did enjoy... and sit downs with Nicholas Meyer, Alex kurtzman and Roberto orci to discuss the infamous villains in the federation.

is that an episode of tng? is that a movie? nope, its not canon then.

I know what you mean about the nacelles sticking out, but imagine the ship coming straight up at you. The front of the Sovereign and the shape of its saucer section, along with the bottom part where torpedoes come from was supposed to block any view of the nacelles.

if we assume that it was supposed to block the nacelles then it did a poor job:
[align=center][img width=400]http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/sovereign/sovereign-fore-nemesis.jpg[/img][img width=200]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100730191907/memoryalpha/en/images/4/48/Sovereign_class_CGI_model_by_Santa_Barbara_Studios.jpg[/img][/align]

you can see the nacelles from in front of the ship. to not be able to hit the nacelles you would have to be close and underneath the saucer, a stupid place to be considering that's where the quantum torpedo lawnchairs are.

and of course there's no canon evidence that it was supposed to block view of the nacelles. if they didnt want people shooting at the nacelles then they wouldnt have put them sticking out from the ship.

Yes.. all fed ships do stick out on the side, and from side angles are easy to hit. But the sovereign was specifically designed to face enemies head on.

most fighting in trek happens head on regardless of ship design. they didnt wanna confuse viewers with all 3 dimensions of space. in reality all ships in trek are designed to fight ships in front of them, thats why torps usually fire forward. this doesnt tend to be a big problem as the ships in trek can manoeuvre really fast and easily, allowing ships to get a firing angle. but when ships are completely out manoeuvred like when voyager got bumrushed in VOY: Concerning Flight, then they cant get proper firing solutions. also starfleet uses phasers as their primary weapon, something that can fire in a wide arc. the klingon bops dont have that, but they are small and nimble.

but the saucer section, and the bottom part, I forge the name, wherever the deflector dish thing is, that part, between that and saucer section, it was supposedly well armed with phasers and quantum torpedoes. Maybe not that it had multiple points of shooting them, just that it had a large number in store.

we can only go from where we see torps launch from (as we have seen before that holes =/= launcher always. so we've only seen torps come from under the deflector dish, near the main shuttlebay, and from near the captains yacht. 3 locations (a reasonable total for star trek in general). intrep/galaxy had only 1 place less, the akira has under the saucer and from the front of the pod and from the back of the pod. thats 3 locations too, but the akira isnt a dread. the defiant had 2 locations at the front (left and right) and one at the back. 3 locations again, but not a dread.

storing mutliple torps also doesnt make you a dread. the galaxy supposedly carried a lot of torps. the flops nova carries a lot of torps but doesnt use them itself.

do you remember the voyager episode where tuvok is orientating the maquis in the beginning. he has them face large numbers of enemies, three romulans uncloak and blow them to bits. they boldly fight mock battle after mock battle, and eventually tells them, the correct choice is to retreat. it was a nice show. although that's all i remember from it.

no.. there is nooo conceivably imaginable reason at all to have holodecks on a warship(Which can be used for training AS WELL as recreation).... .... .....

?

ep was VOY: Learning Curve, a good ep. but you're missing out the fact that these maquis were not starfleet, they were maquis. the sort of training they were doing in the holodeck should be done at the academy.

My personal favourite was tng generations (the ALL TIME BEST TNG MOVIE) with Dr Soran.. my personal favourite villain. He was a good guy... just got a little obsessed with a powerful nebula that flies through the universe where you experience bliss like a big heroine rush... not that I know what a heroine rush is like, but you get hooked on it pretty quick apparently. So like that, he just became a little bit violent in getting what he wanted. good times.

see now i know you're crazy, who likes generations more than first contact?!? srs, how can sauron be a better villain than the borg queen?

not that I know what a heroine rush is like

i believe you (!)

i take it back, you're not crazy, you're high!

also heroin is a drug, this is a heroine:

[align=center][img width=200]http://www.silverf0x.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/alison-carroll-lara-croft-03.jpg[/img][/align]

Thought: i'll seem less sexist if i can find an image of a less hot heroine

this is one too:

[align=center][img width=200]http://information2share.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/wallpapers-room_com___samus_aran_by_reinaldoquintero_1280x1024.jpg[/img][/align]

Thought: still too sexy

[align=center][img width=200]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JRmzVLvHrn4/TKhVFKTzNRI/AAAAAAAAALo/6bJiFZ-_uLo/s1600/5-wonder_woman.jpg[/img][/align]

Thought: nope

[align=center][img width=400]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9u68swaEhhg/TXzTOs0htOI/AAAAAAAAERU/6GVxSIFAV2U/s1600/Motoko%2BKusanagi%2BWallpaper.jpg[/img][/align]

Thought: Oh come on! that's just ridiculous.

seems what we've learned here is that i dont know any heroines that arent sex objects, i'm a horrible human being. yay.

[align=center][img width=300]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cJlpHAZm1_o/TNHxb-_FHpI/AAAAAAAAG0Q/CPxMjU9Kw_4/s1600/f11.jpg[/img]
click to embiggen[/align]

posted on October 14th, 2011, 5:13 pm

A developer commentary by the creators of the show is canon.  The rest is details.

Obviously the details change in the actual implementation of the models and storyline, that's why they're not good for arguing against developer intent.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 5:27 pm

did we realy have to drag Samus into this?

We do only consider the shows and movies canon for Fleet Operations, and even there we do adjustments as Fleet Operations splits of the official Star Trek storyline. At the end of the day, I cant see the Federation using dreadnoughts for both gameplay and storyline reasons. And even if so, especially not the Sovereign. The Phalanx and the Descent are as close as Starfleet would get to this topic, I suppose.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 5:45 pm

A developer commentary by the creators of the show is canon.  The rest is details.

actually no it isnt. canon is black and white.

things that are prime canon:
- episodes of tos, tng, ds9, voy (even threshold, but people tend to give it less weight), and ent
- episodes of tas (the recent position has been one of inclusion, again less weight tends to get given to it, but its still canon
- the movies (tmp, wok, search for spock, tvh, final frontier, uc, gens, fc, ins, nem)

things that are jj trek canon:
- star trek 09

things that are not canon:
- everything else in the known universe(s).

a documentary/talk by a creative staff member is not canon, it doesnt matter if it had gene roddenberry himself in it. these sources can be drawn upon for non canon speculation sometimes, but a lot of them contradict each other or canon, and in this case the source makes very little sense.

did we realy have to drag Samus into this?

sorry, you like samus i assume?

i wish they had left her in the suit, she wasnt objectified then. a strong female protagonist that isnt a sex object is a rare find.

At the end of the day, I cant see the Federation using dreadnoughts for both gameplay and storyline reasons. And even if so, especially not the Sovereign. The Phalanx and the Descent are as close as Starfleet would get to this topic, I suppose.

i like this aspect of flops, the only canon dread we ever saw was the dom dread in DS9: valiant, and that thing was several times the size of a galaxy class. that's a real dread. feds never had anything close. even the descent is special for its shields rather than guns. thats personally why i think the phalanx is the perfect fit for a risner ship.

[RedEyedRaven]

posted on October 14th, 2011, 7:53 pm

Last edited by RedEyedRaven on October 14th, 2011, 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

seems what we've learned here is that i dont know any heroines that arent sex objects, i'm a horrible human being. yay.

I think I know one.
And I'll ignore how her look suddenly turned in Alien - Resurrection, because we all know how she looked in the previous movie.^^

posted on October 14th, 2011, 8:13 pm

Myles, is this a joke?

The source was a 5 dvd set of all the movies, there was a trek designer who explained it... so sure maybe it wasn't in the actual movie... but wow are you just a little picky. Who even cares about this argument. I'm telling you about what the designers planned for. Like you're entire argument is sort of childish, did you read your post?

Heroin vs heroine... so the mature thing to do when a typo is made is to focus on the obvious wrong sense of the word... you really show sound reason going on a meaningless tangent. But yes... haha lol I made a typo so make a couple jokes... fair enough.

now. I honestly don't care about the topic. I was simply pointing out something that was included in the movie set. You sound like a religious fundamentalist. I never personally mentioned canon. It's a nice line of thought... but so is what the artists and creators of the show had in mind. You can hide behind strict fundamentalist views of canon if you'd like, but it seems someone childish considering it was blatantly explained by a trek designer.

LOL and the rest of the post is really not great quality. You really think it is a good argument that ALL training is done at the academy, and there is nothing on site to help out? No offense... but your arguments are not good. Except for the most narrow understanding of things. For instance, who likes Generations more than First Contact... Because that makes sense. I could go more into this... but the quality of Generations was WAY WAY WAY better than FC. Why? Storyline, plot, transition with tos to TNG, acting, lol so much. A villain that is actually believable and not something contrived like every other story out there where there is a 'bad guy'. He's the best, because he was original. How many story lines do you know of where the bad guy is a guy who's just pursuing is dream. NORMALLY, that would be the protagonist. In this case though, pursuing your dream is just complicated because you need to destroy planets, originality!  Besides, the borg Queen, I never said that was a bad villain... but yes, a villain with thousands of minions ilke zombies... that's real original myles. FC is not a better movie than Generations, not even close. You can argue the action aspect of it, and yeah, FC did have more action. But for a movie... for a storyline, plot, acting... like the two aren't even in the same league. Generations just owns. Picard's character was way better in generations then in FC. Data's storyline with his emotion chip.

and so yeah... also, I don't care about the classification, battleship, warship... I don't care if it turns out to be a dread or not. But simply that it was made to fight against the borg... makes it a battleship. The timeline where the Enterprise E came into service wasn't a time of exploration for star fleet. It was a time of increased threats. So yeah, they build more powerful ships.

This conversation is going no where... no offense, but from where your coming from with 'canon' is nice and all... it's just narrow-minded. And I'm not that interested in it to have a religious fundamentalist like conversation about it... what's the point in all of this? As First Contact demonstrates... Star fleet has a big time enemy... Borg. What did the Sovereign do to that Sphere? Oh yeah... it blew it to pieces. I know lots of scientific exploration ships that are equipped to blow up ships in a handful of shots....

Really... really... really... I don't know if you are just not seeing things right, but your post had very little CONTENT. You sure said a lot though...

posted on October 14th, 2011, 9:00 pm

Myles, is this a joke?
Heroin vs heroine... so the mature thing to do when a typo is made is to focus on the obvious wrong sense of the word... you really show sound reason going on a meaningless tangent. But yes... haha lol I made a typo so make a couple jokes... fair enough.

you started with 3 lols but then it went down hill. the heroin thing was obviously a joke dude.

The source was a 5 dvd set of all the movies, there was a trek designer who explained it... so sure maybe it wasn't in the actual movie... but wow are you just a little picky.

there's no 2 ways about canon. if we start accepting non canon things we get some crazy stuff that sounds good, stuff that's official yet still silly. creators will say some crazy stuff when they arent contributing to the show's canon. how about the akira with a million torpedo launchers and fighters and rams and trebuchets and and and. it gets silly if we accept stuff that isnt canon.

Who even cares about this argument

now. I honestly don't care about the topic.

well, judging from your post, i'm guessing you do care

You sound like a religious fundamentalist. I never personally mentioned canon. It's a nice line of thought... but so is what the artists and creators of the show had in mind. You can hide behind strict fundamentalist views of canon if you'd like, but it seems someone childish considering it was blatantly explained by a trek designer.

i'm not hiding behind the definition of canon. the star trek universe is only dictated by what is canon, there is so much stuff that is "official" or is from creators, and loads of it either contradicts canon or makes little sense. 1 designer doesnt dictate a whole show, creative staff have differing views on what the trek universe should be in all its details. they have creative meetings and work out what the show should be.

like your source about the saucer section blocking the nacelles, despite the fact that i showed images that make that sound ridiculous. and the general fact that you cant block access to something that protrudes quite a distance from your ship. the general idea of the sovvie being a warship doesnt hold water in any way, look how plush and nice it is on the inside, large rooms and generous quarters, instead of more torpedo racks.

You really think it is a good argument that ALL training is done at the academy, and there is nothing on site to help out? No offense... but your arguments are not good.

ahem, you didnt read what i typed. here it is again quoted verbatim:

"the sort of training they were doing in the holodeck should be done at the academy"

who said "ALL training"? not i. the training they were doing was pretty basic starship management stuff, the stuff they didnt learn at the academy since they never attended the academy. they were doing cadet stuff. on a warship you dont train officers for the advanced stuff either, that would be best done on a training ship or done in the field. warships are for war, not training. the officers that get to a warship would already be trained.

For instance, who likes Generations more than First Contact... Because that makes sense. I could go more into this... but the quality of Generations was WAY WAY WAY better than FC. Why? Storyline, plot, transition with tos to TNG, acting, lol so much. A villain that is actually believable and not something contrived like every other story out there where there is a 'bad guy'. He's the best, because he was original. How many story lines do you know of where the bad guy is a guy who's just pursuing is dream. NORMALLY, that would be the protagonist. In this case though, pursuing your dream is just complicated because you need to destroy planets, originality!  Besides, the borg Queen, I never said that was a bad villain... but yes, a villain with thousands of minions ilke zombies... that's real original myles. FC is not a better movie than Generations, not even close. You can argue the action aspect of it, and yeah, FC did have more action. But for a movie... for a storyline, plot, acting... like the two aren't even in the same league. Generations just owns. Picard's character was way better in generations then in FC. Data's storyline with his emotion chip.

the bit you took so srs was also a joke. are you tired? the question of "which film is better/best" is completely subjective and down to taste. i'd never argue with anyone about which film they prefer. some people really do prefer generations, not many, but some. check out redlettermedia's comedy review of generations for a laugh. fc had some bad mistakes too, such as picard the angry man, picard the action hero. generations had action man picard to a lesser degree.

What did the Sovereign do to that Sphere? Oh yeah... it blew it to pieces. I know lots of scientific exploration ships that are equipped to blow up ships in a handful of shots....

ahem, the sphere was basically an escape pod it would be weak, 4 quantums took it down, the defiant (a much smaller ship) could launch more than that number as well. and if it had shields, they would have been knocked out by the time travel, like the enterprise's shields. the fact that a sovvie blew it up isnt really saying much.

Really... really... really... I don't know if you are just not seeing things right, but your post had very little CONTENT. You sure said a lot though...

that's the pot calling the kettle black, your walls of text are famous.

your post sounds really angry, and if i've offended you i'm sorry, cos i think you're a nice guy. it seems you took several of my jokes as serious and took offence when none was intended. the most important thing about debating is that you enjoy the debate.

[godsvoice]

posted on October 14th, 2011, 9:37 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on October 14th, 2011, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yeah, i figured some parts were jokes... I actually did. But it is hard when all you are doing is reading. as has been brought up in every thread with an argument, sarcasm is not always easily read. AND YES I AM VERY TIRED! I don't want to bore you with intricate details of my life, but I have not got much sleep in days. ... It happens. I actually had zero sleep, for like 30 hours since my last post. Although I did get a 4 hour nap since then... I can't seem to sleep.

so here is the problem, when your trying to have a conversation about a ships use, misunderstandings can come up when things get thrown around without an easy way to take them the right way (like outside standard to use, because yes, canon and all is very limited, and lots of sources conflict.

I really don't care that much in all honesty. So in every way that I misquoted or misunderstood you, I apologize, and lets be friends. I don't care about being right. Or which movie was best or worst. Although Generations was waaaayyyyy better  haha joke.

It comes back to the same thing. In my first post, in the very simplest sense, completely ignoring the rest of this thread entirely, I was just trying to make the point that the sovereign would be a battleship by many appearances. Whether or not canon has made this official... I don't care. I mentioned the evolutions dvd simply because that was an inside source, it gave the whole point. But I don't need to rely on it, and I can give my own photo examples.

As for the nacelles, google the image on the case of star trek armada 2. Look at the sovereign and how its coming up shooting the one phaser blast. Look at how the saucer section is covering the warp nacelles. Are they slightly visible? Yes. But the saucer section and underside are much more likely to be hit.  The nacelles are much better concealed than say the Vorcha.

and I am a nice guy, and I know you are too. been here in the community for a while.

so lets just chop it up to a misunderstanding and agree to disagree. cause while i agree, not about the holodecks, but that the rooms are a bit lush for comfort, considering how they showed us the defiant and its quarters, yes defiant is the better warship.

I'm not upset. Seriously. It is actually because I don't care, that I have to argue about something that I don't care about and get into a big debate about it... when it isn't that big a deal to me. Probably just the lack of sleep and what not I dunno.

No offence taken or intended, but while some debates can be enjoyable in my personal view though, academic debates are somewhat fruitless... lol and that would lead to an epically long famous post to fully explain. But in short, debates don't lead to conclusions. They fortify particular views, and create two opposing poles on the subject, and rarely resolve anything. Sometimes they do.. when one side is just mistaken, and it gives them insight. But I don't agree with the academic precept that you are justified in your view if you can support it with some 'example' that you are correct. For instance, let's say eggs. Are eggs good or bad for you? lol I have no idea, but every other year, there is a debate over some new study that contradicts the last one. Not even gonna bring American politics into what debates can do in dividing and separating a nation based on policy.

So, again, the reason for the apparent upsetness is that I'm arguing over something I could care less about. So, for the sake of (not pointlessly) debating... you are right Myles. Sovereigns not a battleship. She's a toy with some nasty teeth that tear through a sphere. lol

Edit: Besides, I'm Canadian. We Canadians don't like to argue, we like to just agree and say 'Eh'.

Some cold weather today Eh? Sure is Eh. Do you agree about global warming - eh? No idea, but probably make for some warmer winters eh?. Oh for sure, eh.

haha... lame.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 10:12 pm

lol agree to disagree is fine by me.

speaking of eggs i just had a nice fried egg sandvich.

canadian eh jokes? man thats almost as bad as my sexism

posted on October 14th, 2011, 10:22 pm

ah yes, but canadians are very deep, and in tune with who we are as a nation.

look at our olympics, and how we go about creating our opening ceremonies.

lol, giant beaver and lumberjacks... sigh.

Ha, not sure if you saw those the other year during winter olympics. But yeah. I think there might have been better things we could do then promote international stereotypes about ourselves, but ah, what the hay why not.

In some ways it wasn't that bad, going for light humour, i suppose.