Rework the Sovereign for a different role.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 12:25 pm

WELLLLL............. It is like 10-20 years after Nemisis though isn't it?

that would make the sovvie weaker not stronger. if it wasnt a dread when it was built i doubt it will be one in the future.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 12:37 pm

that would make the sovvie weaker not stronger. if it wasnt a dread when it was built i doubt it will be one in the future.

We saw the sovie in FC: a few phasers, quantum torps, about 3-4 photn launchers in front and at the back.
in Insurrection : more phasers, more torps,
in nemisis: A phaser for every milimeter of the hull, 10 torp launchers at the back and front, quantum launchers.
its not only being refitted, its being refitted to be the ultimate battleship of the Federation. and science, of course

posted on October 13th, 2011, 12:40 pm

lol if you wanna imagine many more guns then go ahead.

just cos it fired in different patterns doesnt mean it got more phasers.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 1:33 pm

At least in the Fleet Operations universe, the Sovereign is an allround vessel, designed to fullfill the original 5-year-missions Starfleed issued before the Dominion War - not a warship

[trekkiefan2]

posted on October 13th, 2011, 9:42 pm

Last edited by trekkiefan2 on October 13th, 2011, 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

that would make the sovvie weaker not stronger.

Not necessarily, the Enterprise-A refit was far more powerful than the original. It could be a 'Sovereign mk. II' production line, suited more for war than scientific pursuits.

I think sovvies should be a fleet killer to the point of being a game changer. you create a sovereign either as a last stand or a final blow...this acts like the Dom's mixtech or the Borg cube or the Rom's Tarvara.

I don't think the Sovvie should be anywhere near what you suggest for it. For one, the Federation isn't into the buisness of building dreadnaughts (Excalibur is the only real exception ), and instead focus more on mostly smaller vessels with powerful special abilities. Having it be equivilant to the Borg Cube/Tavara/Dominion Dreadnaught would not be a very good idea either, especially with the low cost you gave it. This brings me to my last point; no single ship should be a game changer, even a Cube wouldn't be enough to win the game singlehandedly.

I think we all agree the Sovvie needs changing of some sort, but making it into a dreadnaught or giving it overpowered systems just so it becomes more frequently used isn't the answer. Rather, we should give it some sort of fleet/passive boost to make it more attractive to players. I believe Tryptic was on to something here:

Flagship computing
In addition to its normal tactical systems, the Sovereign is outfitted with a number of computing systems designed specifically to coordinate the fleet.  This improved organization allows support abilities to be utilized more fully in the fleet.

Whenever a friendly special is used on the Sovereign, it is duplicated and applied to 5 other ships you control within a medium-range area.  (The Fed Support abilities are Fleet Supply, Emergency Power, and Vector Calculation.  Shield Reset does not count) This ability cannot affect other Sovereigns so no double-bouncing effects.

The Prime use for this ability will be Vector Calculation, obviously, making for a clear and beautiful synergy between the Remore's targeting computers and the Sovereign's command computers.  This will be the Feds' lategame weapon of awesomeness when done correctly.  Even the other two abilities could have some interesting uses.  The Veteran ability of the Sovereign could increase the range to long and increase the affected targets to 10, plus allowing abilities from other races to use the ability (only Order to Chaos would benefit much from this, but it would be devastating)

As I said earlier, maybe the effect should be slightly reduced, but I belive this is the kind of thing we need

posted on October 13th, 2011, 9:48 pm

Not necessarily, the Enterprise-A refit was far more powerful than the original. It could be a 'Sovereign mk. II' production line, suited more for war than scientific pursuits.

who said the tmp refit ent (not ent a, that arrived in st 4) was far more powerful than the tos ent? they werent compared and there was only a few years between them. there's only the visual differences, which are more to do with huge advances in special effects and budget. i'd imagine that if the tos ent was made with a real budget and good effects that it wouldnt look hugely different from the tmp ent.

even if we assume a big jump from ent to ent a because of the visual changes, the sovvie hasnt changed visually, so there's not a huge amount that can be done. only standard refits.

posted on October 13th, 2011, 10:56 pm

I also agree that Tryptics suggestion, especially considering the "wholesomeness" and "every dam bit counts", would fit well with the feds, mirroring the saber special

posted on October 13th, 2011, 11:43 pm

While Passives are interesting, I'm a bit more keen on visuals and such. An interesting way to represent the sovereign might be as a half combat half support ship. What if she had 2 specials one defensive, one offensive but only enough "juice" to do one without recharging? Defensive: engine disabler, offensive: quantum torpedo strike

I've really wanted the sovereign to use photon torpedoes instead of quantums in 4 shot volleys with fore and aft coverage. While the offensive special be the quantum torpedo volley limited to a forward arc while splitting the damage 50/50 between hull and shields of the enemy target. A sort of "finisher" if you will. may need tweaking.

This doesn't fix the role issues, but makes the ship look cooler, which I nerd gasm over.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 1:03 am

I just sort of assumed the Sovereign was designed with combat in mind, seeing how the last 2 Enterprises were galaxies and not suited for combat, then they switched to the Sovereign during the Dominion war.

Watching the movie again, I can see that Picard took control after "the admiral's ship was destroyed."  I guess the role of the Enterprise as Flagship had become a bit of a figurehead at this point, as the Federation didn't want their Flagship to be a ship of war, but at the same time they were in a war and needed a leader.  I expect the Admiral's ship was functioning as the military flagship while the Enterprise remained the diplomatic flagship.  The end result is that we see the Enterprise fighting while most of its non-combat action happens offscreen.

Still, the Galaxy's superior computers are represented by TWA and its weapon toggle, the intrepid's organic computers are represented by its officer rof bonus.  I just realized that the officer Sovereign's ability always works against borg, which is pretty cool and covers my original idea.  Still, as Boggz said in the Neghvar thread, defensive abilities make main-stream ships while offensive abilities make specialists.  And the Sovereign is WAY too hard to reach for a mainstream ship, making it a specialist.  I think it should have a damage or synergy ability instead of ablative armor.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 3:08 am

Well, I said you can nerf it. but I feel that it should still be more powerful then the defiant. but if you look deep into the star trek lore, you'll see that this ship was designed for combat. every sub-section, every phaser, every bulkhead was designed with combat in mind. officially, the sov is the perfect warship. once the dominion attack ended they refitted it for exploration. but if there is another global conflict, they will put back the weapons.
another thing. the Federation always refits their ships. we saw that on TNG. every season, they go into a star-base for repair and refit or only refit.And they're always blabbering about the new phaser systems they put in; advanced warp-core,sensors etc... . and we clearly saw a difference in the weapon system in ENT between Season 1&4. Fed ship do get refitted every 1-2 years. why not the sovereign. and since it's the pride of the fleet, the have to, have to, have to upgrade it's weapons. officially; the Excalibur has massive fire power, but if it's not escorted by a fleet, it will die a horrible death. a sovvie's an all-in-one.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 5:16 am

well tbh the sovie looks more war like cause the last 2 movies with picard where just: shoot and rage quit stories. it was just thick of plot weapons/armor. besides, compared to the other late game ships in the gave. i think the sovie isn't high on the list of altering it

posted on October 14th, 2011, 10:11 am

if you look deep into the star trek lore, you'll see that this ship was designed for combat. every sub-section, every phaser, every bulkhead was designed with combat in mind. officially, the sov is the perfect warship. once the dominion attack ended they refitted it for exploration. but if there is another global conflict, they will put back the weapons.

got any evidence for that pretty big assertion? they never once indicated the sovvie was designed for war in canon. all we have to go on are the previous enterprises. the connie, the excelsior, the ambassador and the galaxy. none of them were warships or designed for war in any way. sisko even said that starfleet doesnt build ships for war. the defiant was the only exception. the sovvie is a general ship that is capable of defensive action. just like most of starfleet.

also the sovvie is far from "the perfect warship". perfect warships dont have holodecks, they have torpedo storage, perfect warships dont have plush quarters, they have torpedo storage, perfect warships dont have massive shuttlebays and dune buggies, they have torpedo storage. perfect warships dont have a plush captains yacht, they have torpedo storage. look at the defiant for a warship, small quarters, no holodeck, minimal shuttlebay. thats a warship.

another thing. the Federation always refits their ships. we saw that on TNG. every season, they go into a star-base for repair and refit or only refit.And they're always blabbering about the new phaser systems they put in; advanced warp-core,sensors etc... . and we clearly saw a difference in the weapon system in ENT between Season 1&4. Fed ship do get refitted every 1-2 years. why not the sovereign. and since it's the pride of the fleet, the have to, have to, have to upgrade it's weapons. officially; the Excalibur has massive fire power, but if it's not escorted by a fleet, it will die a horrible death. a sovvie's an all-in-one.

yes, every ship gets a refit, gets updated tech etc. the sovvie would as well, that doesnt mean it gets upgraded for war. all these refits are pretty standard refits, just bringing the ship up to basic levels for the current technology. its not a refit for battle. a sovvie without escort is dead as well if it gets ambushed by multiple ships. you can do that to any big ship.

[godsvoice]

posted on October 14th, 2011, 10:35 am

Last edited by godsvoice on October 14th, 2011, 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Um, well, I think he is right Myles. The sovereign was built to serve as a warship. It was designed to be the ship to fight against the threat of future borg invasion, and dominion I believe, but for sure against borg.

They even discussed it at some point. The whole design of the ship was based on the saucer section always pointed upwards towards the enemy. Giving them very little access to the warp nacelles and the rest of the hull, because the design was made for the bow of the ship to always be turned upwards against the enemy. This was specifically intended for borg though. The borg use one giant ship. So you don't need to worry about attacks from multiple directions. The defiant and sovereign were both supposed to be the front line defence. And beyond this, the sovereign was meant to be a flagship enterprise, but also a new battleship. And the saucer and portions of the ship were just filled with quantum torpedo launchers, phasers array everywhere.

I'm not so sure about the perfection of it. The perfection aspect of a warship is found in the defiant. That ship is compounded pound for pound with teeth, and more teeth, and then some more teeth, and to be safe, a bit more teeth and speed. So that was the 'perfect' warship. But in descriptions, the sovereign was every bit as much intended for war. The first contact scene when they're patrolling the romulan neutral zone for instance describes this in brief.

As for the holodecks and all... I think that was designed so that picard could disable the safety protocols, and machine gun a couple federation borg officers.  makes for good tv.

I can't quote the exact source... but I'm sure I watched something where it described this in full.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 10:57 am

Um, well, I think he is right Myles. The sovereign was built to serve as a warship. It was designed to be the ship to fight against the threat of future borg invasion, and dominion I believe, but for sure against borg.

the sovvie was finished before the dominion war, that means they started building it even earlier, if we assume that these huge ships take at least 2 years to build, then the sovvie was conceived before starfleet even knew the dominion existed.

the defiant was starfleet's anti borg ship. the sovvie was never mentioned to be anti borg.

They even discussed it at some point. I can't quote the exact source... but I'm sure I watched something where it described this in full.

who are they, and was it a star trek tv episode or a movie (rhetorical question, answer is no)? no? then its not canon and not relevant.

The whole design of the ship was based on the saucer section always pointed upwards towards the enemy. Giving them very little access to the warp nacelles and the rest of the hull, because the design was made for the bow of the ship to always be turned upwards against the enemy. This was specifically intended for borg though. The borg use one giant ship. So you don't need to worry about attacks from multiple directions. The defiant and sovereign were both supposed to be the front line defence. And beyond this, the sovereign was meant to be a flagship enterprise, but also a new battleship. And the saucer and portions of the ship were just filled with quantum torpedo launchers, phasers array everywhere.

the saucer section is horizontal like with all the other starfleet ships.

less access to warp nacelles? you mean the giant glowing tubes that stick out on the end of thin sticks that protrude far out from the ship? yeah, the enemy will never see those. totally concealed (!) starfleet have always had easy to shoot nacelles.

filled with quantum torpedo launchers? we only saw the quantums come from one place on the entire ship, the launcher under the saucer which shared a lot of space with the captain's yacht. thats 1 place on the entire ship that can launch quantums, certainly not filled with quantum torpedo launchers.

and phasers everywhere? all starfleet ships had loads of phasers to give them 360 degree firing capabilities. the intrepid had the same phaser coverage. as did the galaxy and the excelsior.

But in descriptions, the sovereign was every bit as much intended for war. The first contact scene when they're patrolling the romulan neutral zone for instance describes this in brief.

that patrol of the neutral zone was said to be when starfleet was going after the borg. timeline: call comes in that borg are attacking, then picard gets ordered to go patrol the neutral zone. they werent patrolling the zone before the borg came, they were doing a shakedown cruise that lasts a whole year. it was only when the borg attacked that starfleet sends picard away to the quiet neutral zone because they are afraid he cant deal with fighting the borg again. which is bullshit since they put him in charge of fighting the borg in TNG: Descent and he solved the problem with no mental breakdowns. back to the start of first contact: if the sovvie was the ultimate battleship don't you think they would want it fighting the borg for sure? they would give someone else command temporarily if they really didnt trust picard. but no they were willing to keep the ent e out of the fight, happy that it was only 1 less ship in the fight.

also about this 1 year shakedown, they were doing pretty much nothing since they launched. they launched in 2372, when there was a war with the klingons. but guess starfleet doesnt need the ent e in that war either. if the ent e was such a super battleship they would have sent it to fight rather than shakedown for a whole year. in yesterday's enterprise it was revealed that the klingons can kick the federation's arse in a war, so the klink-fed war should have been important.

As for the holodecks and all... I think that was designed so that picard could disable the safety protocols, and machine gun a couple federation borg officers.  makes for good tv.

you mean they installed a holodeck for no canon reason? that doesnt sound like an effective warship at all.

posted on October 14th, 2011, 11:18 am

erg. I think some parts of my post were taken to literally.

Do you own the dvds of all four TNG shows?

It has a documentary on them. It outlines the producers design of the ship.

I know what you mean about the nacelles sticking out, but imagine the ship coming straight up at you. The front of the Sovereign and the shape of its saucer section, along with the bottom part where torpedoes come from was supposed to block any view of the nacelles.

Yes.. all fed ships do stick out on the side, and from side angles are easy to hit. But the sovereign was specifically designed to face enemies head on. And yes... obviously they don't have phasers and torpedoes EVERYWHERE, like coming out of the nacelles themselves... but the saucer section, and the bottom part, I forge the name, wherever the deflector dish thing is, that part, between that and saucer section, it was supposedly well armed with phasers and quantum torpedoes. Maybe not that it had multiple points of shooting them, just that it had a large number in store.

If you buy the four set dvd of all tng episodes, it has it all in there. I am holding it in my hand as we speak.

Google something like: Star Trek Evolutions: Moments in star trek history

This exclusive bonus disc features an all new collection of footage and revealing insights from various fimakes as they memorialize their favourite moments of start trek history... bla bla bla detailed look at the evolution of the U.S.S. Enterprise... in which it describes them all, ending with the Sovereign. and then more bla bla bal, and one part I did enjoy... and sit downs with Nicholas Meyer, Alex kurtzman and Roberto orci to discuss the infamous villains in the federation.

My personal favourite was tng generations (the ALL TIME BEST TNG MOVIE) with Dr Soran.. my personal favourite villain. He was a good guy... just got a little obsessed with a powerful nebula that flies through the universe where you experience bliss like a big heroine rush... not that I know what a heroine rush is like, but you get hooked on it pretty quick apparently. So like that, he just became a little bit violent in getting what he wanted. good times.