Possible change to Intel Center

[RedEyedRaven]

posted on March 21st, 2010, 2:16 am

Last edited by RedEyedRaven on March 21st, 2010, 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Not really ninja'd due to the fact I actually never disagreed with a change. Saying that it works well is not equal to saying that it doesn't need a change. 

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:33 am

I think Myles was referring to himself 

In any case, you did state that it works well and is Romulan-like. That in and of itself is roughly tantamount to saying you are satisfied with it (as you also only said decreasing the chance of success by 10%). No matter though 

The problem with the Intelligence Center is in fact its sabotage ability. Although a nice trick, it's temperamental in relation to battles.

Against the Borg for instance it is incredibly overpowered. Even destroying a single simple Resource Assimilator can cause game over. If you hit something bigger - say a Scout Cube or something of that sort - that's equivalent to eliminating many individual units of another faction.

This problem of course extends beyond the Borg, especially as you get to larger chassis. Completely forgetting the ability to remove the Sleeper Agent (as you will almost never get the chance to - except when the station is at rank zero or one), in big maps Sabotage can decimate fleets long before they make it to your base. It's another hand of [insert deity] ability - just like Graviton Detection Grid. In end game scenarios Sabotage can completely disrupt a game if it should take out a veteran for instance. Frankly put, the station has always tetered between overpowered and underpowered - in Beta 2 it was point, click, boom. In PR it was "oh noes, I lowered half the shields on a K'tinga".

If you want a "show" reason for removing and changing Sabotage, I'd say that we've never witnessed the Romulans actually try and blow up a vessel - they like taking military secrets back, or weakening defenses before an attack. That's pretty weak though, so I think I'll still stick to the gameplay reasons for changing it into a more fun ability, and not one that has to be given rules based on the cirumstances.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:44 am

They're also not suicide bombers.  We've seen Tomolok almost go to war when he found out one of his crew died.  And was concerned for the well being of another when the Enterprise found the second crew member.  And how does one blow up a cube from the inside, anyway?

[Tyler]

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:53 am

Last edited by Tyler on March 21st, 2010, 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tomalak was always trying to provok Picard, and was probably trying to cover the existence of the second officer on the spying ship the should only have had a crew of 1.

Blowing ships up doesn't need a sacrifice, I know you must have heard of timers and remote detonators. Set a bomb, begin countdown, leave the ship, Boom. The Tal'Shiar would have no reason to just disable a ship they don't believe they can lean any secrets from.

I got no idea about the Cube...

posted on March 21st, 2010, 4:03 am

And yet Tomolok was still concerned for the safety of his centurion.  And yet the sleeper agent is still on board when the ship blows up.   The point is blowing up ships, the borg specifically, but larger chassis ships in general, is too powerful, and there are plenty of far more interesting abilities that the intel center could use instead of "Click-Click-Pew Pew, I blew up your ship!  I'm so skilled!   Click-Click-Pew Pew, I blew up your ship!  I'm so skilled!   Click-Click...."

[Tyler]

posted on March 21st, 2010, 4:10 am

Last edited by Tyler on March 21st, 2010, 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

And yet the sleeper agent is still on board when the ship blows up.

Would you expect the game the game to show them escape in a shuttle? Or just leave it to the imagination how they escaped, as it currently does? Romulans are crafty buggers.

And yet Tomolok was still concerned for the safety of his centurion.

When he was discovered, but Tomalak's value of life isn't on trial here.

The point is blowing up ships, the borg specifically, but larger chassis ships in general, is too powerful, and there are plenty of far more interesting abilities that the intel center could use instead of "Click-Click-Pew Pew, I blew up your ship!  I'm so skilled!   Click-Click-Pew Pew, I blew up your ship!  I'm so skilled!   Click-Click...."

And I never argued about keeping it as it is, just not removing blowing up completly. I never claimed the current way is good.

I would still prefer that some ships get destroyed, the Tal Shiar isn't above causing Core breaches.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 5:25 am

Would you expect the game the game to show them escape in a shuttle? Or just leave it to the imagination how they escaped, as it currently does? Romulans are crafty buggers.

You're making a lot of assumptions about what the sleeper agent does and does not do.  But we clearly see the sleeper agent icon on the ship as it blows up, so a better assumption is that he's still on board.

When he was discovered, but Tomalak's value of life isn't on trial here.

Not specifically, but it is a good reflection on how most Romulans value their officers.  And even if they don't, there's little value in killing off highly trained Tal'Shiar Operatives.  Look, if you're going to be the hobo that rides on my train of thought, don't jump off while the it's still moving.

And I never argued about keeping it as it is, just not removing blowing up completly. I never claimed the current way is good.

Never said that you did.  But how do you implement "Some ships getting destroyed?"  Past experience has shown us that allowing a player to choose his target is either embarrassingly overpowered or underpowered.  And randomized targets has proven to be unbalanced when it affects some races so much more than others.  I agree that it would be nice from a "show" perspective, as Romulans would blow up ships, but from a gameplay perspective it hasn't proven to be effective.  Also, there's no guile and deception involved in 2 button clicks like there is in cloaking behind your enemy, and striking from behind when your target's fleet becomes too spread out.  The mechanic itself is not Romulan.

One thing that would be cool is perhaps a cloaked ship that could beam an explosive on board, and you might have a limited time to deal with it.  I think Optec has mentioned something like this on the forums somewhere.  This way, it would require you to actually build a ship and send it to the ship you want to attack, and you could have the chance to decloak it or stop it from beaming the explosive or whatever.  That would be more Romulan like, and a better way than sitting back at your intel center clicking buttons.  It would actually require some micro management and strategy on the part of the romulan player.  So we could both get what we want.  I just want my opponent to work a little harder if he wants to blow up my ships.  Right now, 2 clicks from the intel center is retarded.  Although, no where near as bad as the beta 2 intel center.  But still.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:32 pm

One thing that would be cool is perhaps a cloaked ship that could beam an explosive on board, and you might have a limited time to deal with it.  I think Optec has mentioned something like this on the forums somewhere.  This way, it would require you to actually build a ship and send it to the ship you want to attack, and you could have the chance to decloak it or stop it from beaming the explosive or whatever.  That would be more Romulan like, and a better way than sitting back at your intel center clicking buttons.  It would actually require some micro management and strategy on the part of the romulan player.  So we could both get what we want.  I just want my opponent to work a little harder if he wants to blow up my ships.  Right now, 2 clicks from the intel center is retarded.  Although, no where near as bad as the beta 2 intel center.  But still. Cheesy

Aye, I'd like to see the beam-explosive or whatever trick given to the Shrike's Spy ability. Nobody uses it in multiplayer as far as I've seen, and it would be nice to get some extra functionality out of it

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:41 pm

The problem with the Intelligence Center is in fact its sabotage ability. Although a nice trick, it's temperamental in relation to battles.

Against the Borg for instance it is incredibly overpowered. Even destroying a single simple Resource Assimilator can cause game over. If you hit something bigger - say a Scout Cube or something of that sort - that's equivalent to eliminating many individual units of another faction.

I simply forgot the point of view the Borg players will have on it - because I barely played Borg yet. 
Considering the fact that Borg only have a few powerful vessels in general makes it OP to them so I agree with that.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:47 pm

I think people are forgetting here that the intel center has already been nerfed.  Construction ships, mining ships and all stations are already immune to sabotage since V3.0.  I know it was one of my favorite tactics against the AI to cloak a Talon and get close enough to enemy base to blow up some miners.  V3 killed that ability and made me focus on battleships and science ships, or agianst the feds, repair ships. 

Sabotage could still be improved, I like the idea of multiple types of sabotage.  Maybe even specific, sabotage shields, sabotage engines, ect rather than random.  Maybe random could be only for lvl 1, then it gets an additional more specific abilities with higher levels.  Or in romulan FO fashion, when it levels up you could choose from a set of new abilities with a 'refit'.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:49 pm

I think people are forgetting here that the intel center has already been nerfed.  Construction ships, mining ships and all stations are already immune to sabotage since V3.0.

That's wrong. Constructors and Miners can just as easy be scuttled as other ships.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:51 pm

yup, stations are partially immune though, they cant be blown up, just have their shields dropped, which is nearly as bad lol.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 3:54 pm

yup, stations are partially immune though, they cant be blown up, just have their shields dropped, which is nearly as bad lol.

Especially if you managed to do that on the opponent's starbase just before your fleet attacks.

posted on March 21st, 2010, 4:01 pm

yh that would be awful luck for the other guy.

posted on March 25th, 2010, 12:55 pm

It happens so seldomly that you can take sabotage on stations you are going to attack in then next few seconds, so you can consider that feature as worthless. It would be more sensible it the Shield-Subsystem (or any other) was completly destroyed.