NPC: Vaadwaur

[MrXT]

posted on November 12th, 2011, 6:22 pm

Last edited by MrXT on November 12th, 2011, 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

have you even seen voyager?

devore: 2 ships bigger than voyager and easily a match for voyager.
kazon: see caretaker, that giant ship was embarassing voyager in a battle, the only solution was to sacrifice chakotay's ship in a ram.
malon: voyager couldnt handle the alien ships in the void, the malon ship easily slapped them, then damaged voyager badly. it took a surprise attack by the locals to help voyager win the fight. btw this wasnt a war ship or even an exploration ship, it was the malon equivalent of a dustbin lorry. its primary purpose was hauling rubbish.
hierarchy: one of their ships disabled voyager's weapons with ONE SHOT. Voyager did no apparent damage with its first (and only) shot, despite tuvok saying he found a weakness to explot (nice work tuvok).
Voth: left this one last cos its the funniest, these guys werent as powerful as the hirogen? they could transport ships, that would make an awesome weapon, dematerialise them, dont bother rematerialising.

If you wanna go by extreme weapons/shields only, then the fighting ship in tsunkatse counts too, it was beating voyager before the delta flyer outmaneoevred them.

You didn't really prove a point here, early in the show voyager was shown to be weak, later in the show it was shown to me really powerful the kazon wanted weapons because voyagers weapons were way ahead of them, in every other battle in a 1on1 with the kazon voyager won easily and only had to retreat when swarms of them came, it became blindly obvious that the kazon were not powerful on their own but only powerful in mass which does not make them technologically advanced.

Also voyager was not designed for this anyway its purpose was long range space exploration not combat yet later on in the seasons it soon showed its strength against everyone and showed just how primative everyone else were in comparison to the federation.

The malons most powerful device was a subspace charger (projectile weapons) effective yes but hardly sophisticated which is my point. None of the delta quadrant species matched the tech level of the feds/klingons/romulans ect apart from the borg.

If the vadwauur used corridors that stretched as far as the alpha quadrant then the borg would definitely have found a way to use them you cannot argue with that they are not gods no but they have proven over and over they are the most advanced race discovered in the ST universe .... cant fit in them.... hope that was a joke.

A transport technology that needs no energy and capable of transporting a large enough fleet to finally assimilate earth which is a major objective of the borg and you think that they would have just stopped because MAYBE they couldn't fit, if they managed to develop transwarp drive then im pretty sure they would find a way to get into a tunnel that can lead straight to one of their primary objective, even if size mattered in this alternate space below or in between our own then a logical step would be to send smaller ships which they have and build up to the point where they can take earth. Send probes, assims, spheres and just assimilate ships and add them to the ship till it makes cubes, that's how i think they build anyway, its the only logical way i could think of, they couldn't possibly use shipyards for vessels of a cubes size.

Like that enterprise episode where it started as a small shuttle and ended up being the size of the enterprise, i think they build up the ship from the inside out to make certain shapes till they reach a cube, the most efficient design a robot could think of.


Oh and if that pic you showed was of the corridors then im pretty sure it doesn't lead to the alpha quadrant because iv seen a map like that somewhere before the bottom left is the alpha quadrant, above that is the gamma quadrant and next to the alpha is the delta area and above that is totally unexplored space but is designated something.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 7:19 pm

You didn't really prove a point here, early in the show voyager was shown to be weak, later in the show it was shown to me really powerful the kazon wanted weapons because voyagers weapons were way ahead of them, in every other battle in a 1on1 with the kazon voyager won easily and only had to retreat when swarms of them came, it became blindly obvious that the kazon were not powerful on their own but only powerful in mass which does not make them technologically advanced.

quality of show was bad yes, but that doesnt change the fact that canon has voyager being beaten by that giant ship in the pilot.

and a race being powerful (this is what i was listing, powerful races) can definitely include them having a large fleet of ships that lose 1 on 1. the kazon had a large number of ships, especially when they combined tribes.

The malons most powerful device was a subspace charger (projectile weapons) effective yes but hardly sophisticated which is my point. None of the delta quadrant species matched the tech level of the feds/klingons/romulans ect apart from the borg.

subspace charges, projectiles, like photons and quantums and borg graviton torps and romulan plasma torps. yup all sticks and stones. many powerful races used projectiles. thats not a sign that a race is unsosphisticated.

If the vadwauur used corridors that stretched as far as the alpha quadrant then the borg would definitely have found a way to use them you cannot argue with that they are not gods no but they have proven over and over they are the most advanced race discovered in the ST universe .... cant fit in them.... hope that was a joke.

you say they would definitely have found them, what logic is there behind that? they clearly arent unbeatable. times they have been shown to be imperfect: failed twice attacking earth, got slapped up and down the delta quadrant by voyager, couldnt beat chaotic space, voyager could, couldnt control omega. its perfectly possible they dont know the underspace is there. the vaadwaur didnt leave knowledge of it laying around, they put it in their memories, and they were (mostly) wiped out back when they borg were a minor power.

also most advanced race is Q. also there were some other non corporeal races in tos/tng whose names i forget. speaking of corporeal races, i'd like to know what would happen if the krenim timeship started zapping borg assets. not a guaranteed win, but would be an interesting fight. hard to adapt when you dont know changes have happened in your past.

also about using the underspace to get the alpha quadrant. the borg can get to the alpha quadrant any time they like, they surprise attacked in first contact, presumably one of the 2 cubes to fail attacking earth laid down the transwarp conduit in endgame which goes to our solar system. so without the underspace the borg can send 100 cubes right to earth. obviously they dont as then star trek is over. the borg probably dont even need underspace.

assimilate earth which is a major objective of the borg

i disagree with earth's assimilation being a big priority. the first cube came because of the signal sent in enterprise's second season. then they sent the second cube, this cube got all the way to earth before picard used his inside knowledge to hit a weak spot. then the borg stopped attacking earth. they have many many cubes, cubes are given numbers in the thousands. so they could have just sent 10 cubes and blown up picard easily. but they didnt. my guess is that there are plenty of delta quadrant planets with loads of fresh humanoids for drones, and some technologically advanced races to steal tech from, earth isnt really that special. the second cube had no real reason to come to earth, first contact just needed an enemy. if the borg were really interested in coming to earth then they would have sent more than 2 cubes.

why would earth be a particular target (obviously the show makes it one because the entire audience of star trek is from earth), but not the other alpha/beta powers, like vulcans and klingons and romulans, or the gamma quad powers such as the dominion?

A transport technology that needs no energy and capable of transporting a large enough fleet to finally assimilate earth which is a major objective of the borg and you think that they would have just stopped because MAYBE they couldn't fit, if they managed to develop transwarp drive then im pretty sure they would find a way to get into a tunnel that can lead straight to one of their primary objective, even if size mattered in this alternate space below or in between our own then a logical step would be to send smaller ships which they have and build up to the point where they can take earth. Send probes, assims, spheres and just assimilate ships and add them to the ship till it makes cubes, that's how i think they build anyway, its the only logical way i could think of, they couldn't possibly use shipyards for vessels of a cubes size.

Like that enterprise episode where it started as a small shuttle and ended up being the size of the enterprise, i think they build up the ship from the inside out to make certain shapes till they reach a cube, the most efficient design a robot could think of.

the size thing wasnt serious, yet you've chosen to run with it.

Oh and if that pic you showed was of the corridors then im pretty sure it doesn't lead to the alpha quadrant because iv seen a map like that somewhere before the bottom left is the alpha quadrant, above that is the gamma quadrant and next to the alpha is the delta area and above that is totally unexplored space but is designated something.

nope, thats not a pic of the underspace corridors, why would that be a buch of green isolated dots? if you'd bothered reading the text just before the image you'd know it was the communication network controlled by the hirogen, that was 100k years old. re read the post, it makes a point about the underspace. the 2 quadrants with green dots are delta and alpha. we have to assume delta and alpha quadrants are side by side, as voyager never travelled through another quadrant in the slipstream episode. earth apparantely sits near the border between alpha and beta quadrants due to the interaction of powers from the two quadrants. the gamma quadrant is the one really far away, as starfleet needed a wormhole to get anywhere near it.

quadrants and mapping in general in trek took a bit of a beating over the years.

final note, you said i wrote a story book in my post, you just done the same thing

posted on November 12th, 2011, 7:40 pm

and a race being powerful (this is what i was listing, powerful races) can definitely include them having a large fleet of ships that lose 1 on 1. the kazon had a large number of ships, especially when they combined tribes.

I didn't say they are not powerful i said they were not technologically advanced this is completely different altho you dragged this so far away from my point and the topic that iv forgotten what that was and no longer care.

As for the topic do i think adding an irrelevant race that looks boring and was only in one crap episode, no i hate the idea there are many many other races to choose from that have a better bearing on startrek.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 8:13 pm

As for the topic do i think adding an irrelevant race that looks boring and was only in one crap episode, no i hate the idea there are many many other races to choose from that have a better bearing on startrek.

you've said your piece, i've said mine, so let's leave it at that.

i have no objection to the vaadwaur appearing as a map object/npc, can't hurt to have variety.

[trekkiefan2]

posted on November 13th, 2011, 2:58 am

Last edited by trekkiefan2 on November 13th, 2011, 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well here I go, answering random stuff throughout this topic to give me an excuse to rant...

borg already have a way to earth's solar system (transwarp network goes right to earth, see endgame) but they didnt just send 100 cubes. therefore we have to assume that the borg dont wanna brute force attack earth. when the queen recaptured 7 of 9 she admitted she didnt wanna waste ships attacking earth and wanted to use a virus.

Hmm, maybe that's why they always lost to the Federation... or all the people added to the Collective decreased its intelligence to the point where they couldn't see the obvious.

As for the Kazon, I remember reading they were encountered by the Borg but were the only species considered unworthy of assimilation.

If the vadwauur used corridors that stretched as far as the alpha quadrant then the borg would definitely have found a way to use them you cannot argue with that they are not gods no but they have proven over and over they are the most advanced race discovered in the ST universe

I think we had already established that the Borg are just idiots who create some of the biggest plot holes ever seen.What it ultimately boils down to is that they didn't use the conveniant plot corridors for some reason or other, and doesn't stop the Vadwauur from being valid.

[quote]As for the topic do i think adding an irrelevant race that looks boring and was only in one crap episode, no i hate the idea there are many many other races to choose from that have a better bearing on startrek.[/qoute]
How many episodes did you see the Breen, 8472, etc. yet you still see alot of both of these in A2/Fleetops. Personally I would also prefer Hirogens, Maquis, etc. but I wouldn't mind their inclusion into the game.

And finally, I can't seem to get the image to appear, so I attached below. If anyone's wondering what it's from, its a pretty funny comic series at raldok.com

Attachments

posted on November 13th, 2011, 1:26 pm

you've said your piece, i've said mine, so let's leave it at that.

i have no objection to the vaadwaur appearing as a map object/npc, can't hurt to have variety.

Let's leave it at that. I think the Vaadwaur show potential as possible NPC race or i would not have proposed them in the first place.

posted on November 13th, 2011, 4:30 pm

As a map race, yeah it could work, as maps can be set in the Delta Quadrant, though not many DQ maps get made compared to generic "local" ones, so it would be a bit of a waste. Nothing stopping you from making a mini-mod to add their ships etc though...

Not sure on the idea of them reaching the Alpha Quadrant though. It is really far, but if the corridors can reach Talax (evidently somewhere within reach of the Ocampa system) in one direction from the Vaadwaur homeworld, which is a huge distance considering how far Voyager had travelled by Dragon's Teeth, then assuming that's the same radius in all directions... it might be possible for it to reach as far as the extreme edge of Federation and Romulan space, and if that's true then the Vaadwaur could be just as feasible as the Hirogen... if the Vaadwaur hadn't been practically annihilated, that is.

As for the Borg using Underspace... you're assuming Underspace is faster than Transwarp. If it were, then the Borg would have assimilated the Vaadwaur and/or been a major presence around the corridor network to figure out how to make new ones etc. But as that hasn't happened, I'd say Transwarp is faster and/or more efficient... maybe it's even a parallel development of the same principle... so they didn't bother with Underspace and the Vaadwaur.

posted on November 13th, 2011, 4:33 pm

As for the Borg using Underspace... you're assuming Underspace is faster than Transwarp. If it were, then the Borg would have assimilated the Vaadwaur and/or been a major presence around the corridor network to figure out how to make new ones etc. But as that hasn't happened, I'd say Transwarp is faster and/or more efficient... maybe it's even a parallel development of the same principle... so they didn't bother with Underspace and the Vaadwaur.

or maybe they never assimilated a vaadwaur and dont know its there. the vaadwaur homeworld was bombarded back when the borg only had a handful of systems, so its quite possible they never discovered underspace.

[Atlantis]

posted on November 13th, 2011, 4:37 pm

Last edited by Atlantis on November 13th, 2011, 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As for the arrangement of the quadrants, it's generally accepted by almost everyone to be:

[img width=600]http://startreklives.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/2-quadrants.jpg[/img]

Not canon, but it is from the official "Star Trek Maps" book.

[EDIT: Additional canon reasoning: The Borg initially attacked Romulan space aswell as isolated Federation outposts. Also, USS Prometheus was on it's way to Romulan space. Romulan space is in Beta Quadrant. Therefore Beta Quadrant neighbours Delta Quadrant.

Also, there were references in Voyager, toward the end, of the path taking them through part of the Beta quadrant. See Renaissance Man. The writers always stated that Voyager ended just short of the Delta/Beta border.]

[EDIT: Canon image time:

From Endgame]

or maybe they never assimilated a vaadwaur and dont know its there. the vaadwaur homeworld was bombarded back when the borg only had a handful of systems, so its quite possible they never discovered underspace.

True. In which case they wouldn't use the corridors to reach Earth for that reason then.

posted on November 13th, 2011, 4:44 pm

As for the arrangement of the quadrants, it's generally accepted by almost everyone to be

Not canon, but it is from the official "Star Trek Maps" book.

i really like that book, its one of the few i own. i'd love for that to be problem free, but it has several issues.

firstly the hirogen comm network covers 3 quadrants when the map in the show had it only covering two.

secondly voyager's direct route home would take it through the beta quadrant for a long time, while in timeless it was shown that the delta and alpha quadrants connect without needing to use the beta.

thirdly the borg transwarp network definitely extends all the way to earth, even if the nearest hub would be far away.

i think if the alpha and beta quadrants were swapped on that map then it might make more sense. but i'm sure there would still be contradictions, canon was pretty bad on that.