NPC: Vaadwaur

posted on November 11th, 2011, 12:26 am

Vaadwaur - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

I'm not sure if it has been proposed before, but perhaps the Vaadwaur are an interesting addition as NPC race.

Entry unto the map can be done with the Cardassian special which created with 8472 vortex. Since the Vaadwaur are/were at a technological disadvantage in the voyager "Dragon's Teeth" the vortex could spawn 4-5 small vessels roughly half the strength of a saber. When making a kill however they salvage weapons from the destroyed ship (Similar to the GLA technical)

How would you feel about adding this race as a NPC in this form.

posted on November 11th, 2011, 1:49 am

I dont think bringing them into fleet ops would make much sense really how ever i do like the idea of salvaging weapon parts perhaps that could be brought in as a special ability for a playable race like the borg or if the maquis ever got put into the game how ever for the borg it could be that the borg cube could assimilate ship weapons to help it to adapt to them it would make the borg adaption ship obsolete how ever but it could be worth someone looking into

posted on November 11th, 2011, 2:08 pm

They are from the delta quadrant and are technologically limited how on earth could they get to the alpha quadrant to do anything. Borg is one thing because they have transwarp.

posted on November 11th, 2011, 3:12 pm

They are from the delta quadrant and are technologically limited how on earth could they get to the alpha quadrant to do anything. Borg is one thing because they have transwarp.

The vaadwaur have the underspace which allows them to travel across vast distances. I believe it is within the realm of possibilities for them to reach the Alpha Quadrant.

posted on November 11th, 2011, 3:29 pm

to add to this the underspace went all the way to talax, it could easily extend near the alpha quadrant. it was never established just how far it extends. i'm surprised the borg didnt find the underspace more interesting.

fleetops is set years after this episode, so the federation would have expanded further and the vaadwaur would have had time to do some scheming, steal some tech etc. i mean look at the tech the pakleds managed to get by being nasty, and there's many questions of just how smart the pakleds are.

posted on November 11th, 2011, 3:39 pm

Thank you.

It is because the Vaadwaur are portrayed as a militaristic race with a 900 year old axe to grind AND access to a underspace which allows them to travel across vast distances is why i proposed them as a NPC race available though a vortex (they pop out of their undercurrent).

In addition they've had 2 decades in the FO timeline to loot undefended colonies, merchant vessels etc to get their hands on more modern technology.

I think I've seen the Hirogen proposed as NPC/mercs so why not the vaadwaur.

posted on November 11th, 2011, 3:43 pm

in the show their primary military tactic using the corridors was raiding, so maybe their stolen/refitted ships could be geared towards that. heavy hitting but weak defensively.

its probably easier to get high tech guns than shields.

posted on November 11th, 2011, 3:45 pm

in the show their primary military tactic using the corridors was raiding, so maybe their stolen/refitted ships could be geared towards that. heavy hitting but weak defensively.

its probably easier to get high tech guns than shields.

I agree considering that the vessels most likely to have modern shielding are military vessels which, at least at first, would be too much to chew on for the outdated Vaadwaur vessels.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 2:49 pm

The vaadwaur have the underspace which allows them to travel across vast distances. I believe it is within the realm of possibilities for them to reach the Alpha Quadrant.

Vast distances within the volume of these under space corridors, if they extended as far as the alpha quadrant which clearly they did not then the borg would most certainly have found them and used them this is without a doubt and before you say that is assumption you are also assuming that the corridors extend to the alpha quadrant. Besides that the vaadwaur are no where near advanced enough to take on ships from this time frame, wouldn't matter if they have the advantage of those corridors or not it would be like 21st century tech trying to take on the borg, not chance, they couldn't even defeat 1 intrepid.

Even as NPC i don't see the point 1 ship? whats the point i just don't see any real use to add a worthless species as an NPC when there so so many other more important ones to choose from that actually come from nearby, voyager never really encountered very advanced species in the delta quadrant because its been savaged by the borg for so long.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 3:45 pm

Vast distances within the volume of these under space corridors, if they extended as far as the alpha quadrant which clearly they did not then the borg would most certainly have found them and used them this is without a doubt and before you say that is assumption you are also assuming that the corridors extend to the alpha quadrant. Besides that the vaadwaur are no where near advanced enough to take on ships from this time frame, wouldn't matter if they have the advantage of those corridors or not it would be like 21st century tech trying to take on the borg, not chance, they couldn't even defeat 1 intrepid.

Even as NPC i don't see the point 1 ship? whats the point i just don't see any real use to add a worthless species as an NPC when there so so many other more important ones to choose from that actually come from nearby, voyager never really encountered very advanced species in the delta quadrant because its been savaged by the borg for so long.

Assuming the Borg actually found them, assuming that borg vessels fit into the underspace and we can continue.
Bottom line is that it is not mentioned just how far the underspace runs which brings it within the realm of possibilities that it runs to the Alpha Quadrant.
Heck, perhaps the Vaadwaur are the same as the ancient race which devastated the Klingon home world in their ancient history. Bottom line is that we do not know.

Put together that the Vaadwaur are militaristic, have a means to travel far and have had 20 years in FO timeline to upgrade their old tech it certainly belongs to the realm of possibilities that they can reach the alpha quadrant.

B.t.w. i mentioned a small batch of 5 ships to emerge from the vortex/underspace.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 4:01 pm

Assuming the Borg actually found them, assuming that borg vessels fit into the underspace and we can continue.
Bottom line is that it is not mentioned just how far the underspace runs which brings it within the realm of possibilities that it runs to the Alpha Quadrant.
Heck, perhaps the Vaadwaur are the same as the ancient race which devastated the Klingon home world in their ancient history. Bottom line is that we do not know.

Put together that the Vaadwaur are militaristic, have a means to travel far and have had 20 years in FO timeline to upgrade their old tech it certainly belongs to the realm of possibilities that they can reach the alpha quadrant.

B.t.w. i mentioned a small batch of 5 ships to emerge from the vortex/underspace.

I call BS on that, a race that was almost completely wiped out... only a handful of ships escaped the onslaught in that voyager episode it would take a VERY VERY long time to recover from that if at all possible. I wonder how many females made it out in order to actually re-produce then there's the fact that they no longer have control over the underspace thing so not really a possibility at all.

This is 20 years after the dom war so if as you say a tiny amount of survivors from a primative race could have reproduced enough to the point where military research can continue even tho that would have been lost when their facility's were destroyed, then the cardasians who still have PLANETS and many advanced ships left could have done the same yet the devs wont consider them as a real power and haven't even added them yet as NPCs so i seriously doubt your explanation would be accepted.

Their technology was at the level where they wouldn't be a threat to anyone with shield technology , certainly not with the amount of ships that escaped and the fact they dont control the underspace and the delta quadrant is without a doubt the most dangerous place in the startrek universe.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 4:09 pm

Vast distances within the volume of these under space corridors, if they extended as far as the alpha quadrant which clearly they did not then the borg would most certainly have found them and used them this is without a doubt and before you say that is assumption you are also assuming that the corridors extend to the alpha quadrant.

actually if you read my post i clearly addressed this. we have no idea of whether they go to the alpha quadrant or not. the vaadwaur didnt even make the underspace they just discovered it. it was already there and the vaadwaur just mapped it. so who exactly constructed it could have been anyone really. a race dead long ago that could have spanned large parts of the galaxy.

the only fact we know for sure is that it gave the vaadwaur access to talax. and remember that this episode was in season 6, so voyager had already used mutliple shortcuts to jump towards the alpha quadrant, so talax was a looooong way back.

remember also that the comm network that the hirogen used extended similar distances, and was also really old (at least 100k years).

[img width=600]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060512190237/memoryalpha/en/images/2/2d/Hirogen_communications_network.jpg[/img]

so there was definitely at least 1 race around long before the show, a race capable of building a network of stations powered by quantum singularities. a network spanning 2 quadrants. and somehow the borg didnt discover that as well.

its definitely possible that underspace extends near to the alpha quadrant. maybe the vaadwaur didnt even map the entire system, they only discovered it years later.

so an assumption that the underspace extends to the alpha quadrant is equally valid as an assumption that it doesnt.

Besides that the vaadwaur are no where near advanced enough to take on ships from this time frame, wouldn't matter if they have the advantage of those corridors or not it would be like 21st century tech trying to take on the borg, not chance, they couldn't even defeat 1 intrepid.

ahem, they managed to heavily damage voyager, that's pretty much the same as the borg managed in all their years

voyager had a lot of luck and help escaping the vaadwaur bumrush. firstly one of the vaadwaur guys switched sides and gave voyager access to targeting data, which she then gave to the 21 turei ships in orbit, who then added their firepower the battle. then voyager still didnt have the power to run, so they had to use the planet's funky radiation to do some technobabble and escape. voyager got out because its the main ship, not because the vaadwaur werent hurting it.

speaking of how crappy their ships are, when voyager ran away from the fight, the remaining vaadwaur fighters went up against the 21 turei ships, 50 vaadwaur ships managed to make it into underspace despite the tech difference. the vaadwaur were powerful for their time, it took the turei and a dozen other species to stop the vaadwaur the first time.

50 of their ships could probably easily ambush a weakly defended colony and steal supplies. combine that with their underspace and they could be a real annoyance.

voyager never really encountered very advanced species in the delta quadrant because its been savaged by the borg for so long.

actually voyager ran accross powerful races like: the Vidiians, the Devore, the Kazon, the Voth, the Hirogen, the Hierarchy and the Malon.

every one of them have powerful ships that can take voyager down 1 on 1. all of them tended to have numbers too.

there's also the krenim, who's status changes all the time.

The voth are by far the strongest name on that list considering conventional (not temporal) power. a ship that rivals a borg cube for size. i guess the voth probably tried to stay out of the borg's hair because there's a chance the collective would commit a whole fleet of cubes to try stop their city ship. seeing as the voth ships can cloak and fly really fast, its likely they could easily evade the borg indefinitely.

the borg had odd tactics for the delta quadrant, they had their central contiguous controlled area (called "borg space") which voyager skipped thanks to kes. but then the transwarp network allowed the borg to pop up all over the place. so borg ships flew all around, even outside borg controlled space. presumably nearby aliens would ignore the borg for as long as they could, hoping the borg would ignore them back. which seemed to be the norm.

about who controls the underspace:

the 50 vaadwaur ships were able to enter the underspace despite 21 turei ships being present. obviously anybody can fly in underspace if they know how to (and if its compatible with their ship). the turei had a ship in underspace monitoring it, this was around a couple minutes travel from the vaadwaur homeworld. the vaadwaur put the maps of underspace in their memories and left no written records of it, so its impossible to say how much of the underspace the turei know about, they may not know about the parts of it that are far away from the vaadwaur homeworld.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 4:20 pm

I call BS on that, a race that was almost completely wiped out... only a handful of ships escaped the onslaught in that voyager episode it would take a VERY VERY long time to recover from that if at all possible. I wonder how many females made it out in order to actually re-produce then there's the fact that they no longer have control over the underspace thing so not really a possibility at all.

This is 20 years after the dom war so if as you say a tiny amount of survivors from a primative race could have reproduced enough to the point where military research can continue even tho that would have been lost when their facility's were destroyed, then the cardasians who still have PLANETS and many advanced ships left could have done the same yet the devs wont consider them as a real power and haven't even added them yet as NPCs so i seriously doubt your explanation would be accepted.

Their technology was at the level where they wouldn't be a threat to anyone with shield technology , certainly not with the amount of ships that escaped and the fact they dont control the underspace and the delta quadrant is without a doubt the most dangerous place in the startrek universe.

I can easily call BS on your line of arguments as well, but Myles already addressed and shot down all your arguments so that saves me the trouble.

It's not as if we're proposing to make them a full race, but they fit the profile of a dangerous, scavenging race and a lot of technology can be scavenged in 2 decades.

[MrXT]

posted on November 12th, 2011, 4:23 pm

Last edited by MrXT on November 12th, 2011, 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

actually if you read my post i clearly addressed this. we have no idea of whether they go to the alpha quadrant or not. the vaadwaur didnt even make the underspace they just discovered it. it was already there and the vaadwaur just mapped it. so who exactly constructed it could have been anyone really. a race dead long ago that could have spanned large parts of the galaxy.

the only fact we know for sure is that it gave the vaadwaur access to talax. and remember that this episode was in season 6, so voyager had already used mutliple shortcuts to jump towards the alpha quadrant, so talax was a looooong way back.

remember also that the comm network that the hirogen used extended similar distances, and was also really old (at least 100k years).

[img width=600]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060512190237/memoryalpha/en/images/2/2d/Hirogen_communications_network.jpg[/img]

so there was definitely at least 1 race around long before the show, a race capable of building a network of stations powered by quantum singularities. a network spanning 2 quadrants. and somehow the borg didnt discover that as well.

its definitely possible that underspace extends near to the alpha quadrant. maybe the vaadwaur didnt even map the entire system, they only discovered it years later.

so an assumption that the underspace extends to the alpha quadrant is equally valid as an assumption that it doesnt.

ahem, they managed to heavily damage voyager, that's pretty much the same as the borg managed in all their years

voyager had a lot of luck and help escaping the vaadwaur bumrush. firstly one of the vaadwaur guys switched sides and gave voyager access to targeting data, which she then gave to the 21 turei ships in orbit, who then added their firepower the battle. then voyager still didnt have the power to run, so they had to use the planet's funky radiation to do some technobabble and escape. voyager got out because its the main ship, not because the vaadwaur werent hurting it.

speaking of how crappy their ships are, when voyager ran away from the fight, the remaining vaadwaur fighters went up against the 21 turei ships, 50 vaadwaur ships managed to make it into underspace despite the tech difference. the vaadwaur were powerful for their time, it took the turei and a dozen other species to stop the vaadwaur the first time.

50 of their ships could probably easily ambush a weakly defended colony and steal supplies. combine that with their underspace and they could be a real annoyance.

actually voyager ran accross powerful races like: the Vidiians, the Devore, the Kazon, the Voth, the Hirogen, the Hierarchy and the Malon.

every one of them have powerful ships that can take voyager down 1 on 1. all of them tended to have numbers too.

there's also the krenim, who's status changes all the time.

The voth are by far the strongest name on that list considering conventional (not temporal) power. a ship that rivals a borg cube for size. i guess the voth probably tried to stay out of the borg's hair because there's a chance the collective would commit a whole fleet of cubes to try stop their city ship. seeing as the voth ships can cloak and fly really fast, its likely they could easily evade the borg indefinitely.

the borg had odd tactics for the delta quadrant, they had their central contiguous controlled area (called "borg space") which voyager skipped thanks to kes. but then the transwarp network allowed the borg to pop up all over the place. so borg ships flew all around, even outside borg controlled space. presumably nearby aliens would ignore the borg for as long as they could, hoping the borg would ignore them back. which seemed to be the norm.

about who controls the underspace:

the 50 vaadwaur ships were able to enter the underspace despite 21 turei ships being present. obviously anybody can fly in underspace if they know how to (and if its compatible with their ship). the turei had a ship in underspace monitoring it, this was around a couple minutes travel from the vaadwaur homeworld. the vaadwaur put the maps of underspace in their memories and left no written records of it, so its impossible to say how much of the underspace the turei know about, they may not know about the parts of it that are far away from the vaadwaur homeworld.

Actually i didn't read your post at all but if you read my post correctly you would have read that i said mine was also an assumption because what andreas said was also an assumption for the reason that it was never said how far they extend, how ever i think my assumption makes the most sense, if indeed these corridors did extend as far as the alpha quadrant then they would have been detected by the borg by now (the most advanced species ever encountered) and researched and almost certainly used by them to assimilate earth by now baring in mind that the vadwaur used these 200 years ago and the borg are even older they would have had 200 years to also see them and find  away to exploit them.

before you say that is assumption you are also assuming that the corridors extend to the alpha quadrant.

Quite clearly an admittance of assumption for obvious reasons.

idiians, the Devore, the Kazon, the Voth, the Hirogen, the Hierarchy and the Malon.

Only skimming your post because its like a story book but you didnt name a single advanced species there accept MAYBE the hirogen. Lets be clear here i was speaking of shield/weapons tech, nothing else.

posted on November 12th, 2011, 5:03 pm

how ever i think my assumption makes the most sense,

:O you mean you think you're right

that's a bit of a tautology.

if indeed these corridors did extend as far as the alpha quadrant then they would have been detected by the borg by now (the most advanced species ever encountered) and researched and almost certainly used by them to assimilate earth by now baring in mind that the vadwaur used these 200 years ago and the borg are even older they would have had 200 years to also see them and find  away to exploit them.

borg already have a way to earth's solar system (transwarp network goes right to earth, see endgame) but they didnt just send 100 cubes. therefore we have to assume that the borg dont wanna brute force attack earth. when the queen recaptured 7 of 9 she admitted she didnt wanna waste ships attacking earth and wanted to use a virus. this is a symptom of the shoddy writing of the show really.

the vaadwaur said they actually ran into the borg when they were originally powerful (over 800 years ago, not 200) and the borg only had a few systems under their control. it seems the borg don't know about underspace. maybe their ships dont fit inside

maybe the borg arent Q so they dont know everything. the borg couldnt destroy humanity, they can be beaten by technobabble, maybe the vaadwaur found some technobabble.

Only skimming your post because its like a story book

if you're too lazy to read an argument then dont bother posting.

you didnt name a single advanced species there accept MAYBE the hirogen. Lets be clear here i was speaking of shield/weapons tech, nothing else.

have you even seen voyager?

devore: 2 ships bigger than voyager and easily a match for voyager.
kazon: see caretaker, that giant ship was embarassing voyager in a battle, the only solution was to sacrifice chakotay's ship in a ram.
malon: voyager couldnt handle the alien ships in the void, the malon ship easily slapped them, then damaged voyager badly. it took a surprise attack by the locals to help voyager win the fight. btw this wasnt a war ship or even an exploration ship, it was the malon equivalent of a dustbin lorry. its primary purpose was hauling rubbish.
hierarchy: one of their ships disabled voyager's weapons with ONE SHOT. Voyager did no apparent damage with its first (and only) shot, despite tuvok saying he found a weakness to explot (nice work tuvok).
Voth: left this one last cos its the funniest, these guys werent as powerful as the hirogen? they could transport ships, that would make an awesome weapon, dematerialise them, dont bother rematerialising.

If you wanna go by extreme weapons/shields only, then the fighting ship in tsunkatse counts too, it was beating voyager before the delta flyer outmaneoevred them.