Noxter Base Idea

posted on January 11th, 2009, 9:06 pm

There's the Problem that until you research those "Anti-8472-Nanite Torpedos" they can wipe out your base with theire scoutship and then still after research your ships can barely suffer one or two hits... 8472 is unable to be balanced without shooting them out of the range of canon... and that would be no fun...

[Anonymous]

posted on January 11th, 2009, 9:13 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 11th, 2009, 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There's the Problem that until you research those "Anti-8472-Nanite Torpedos" they can wipe out your base with theire scoutship and then still after research your ships can barely suffer one or two hits... 8472 is unable to be balanced without shooting them out of the range of canon... and that would be no fun...

8472 scouts being powerful enough to destroy a station is not canon. in fact weve never seen an 8472 scout in voyager.
so that assumption itself is not canonical

from what has been seen, the 8472 battleship was unable to destroy voyager with its hits. A scout with far less power would not be able to do what you;re saying to a station.
there were 2 direct beams shown for 2 cubes being destroyed by 8472, it was never revelaed whether those were from the battleships or from the planet killer.

also, the battleship was not able to destroy the borg cube which was guarding voyager. instead the cube rammed it and destroyed it.
From what we even saw in fluidic space, if the battleships were able to act on the cubes as in scene 1 of Scorpion, they should have blows voyager to bits when connecting. Yet they damaged voyager severely in several shots. so scene 1 of scorpion points to the planet killers hitting the cubes and not the battleships even. A planet killer consisting of 6 -8 battleshis focusing their beams.
we can have the planet killer later in the game and as superweapons for 8472 are quite good with just minor tweaking. we can even have the planet killer frigate shieldless and easily takne apart on nanite adaptation research, since it is a frigate and no where indicated as being anything more than a beam focusing conduit... the achilles heel as it were of the planet killer attack pattern.
what im suggesting is that the research be done, just not as cheaply as the tachyon- bbut not as expensive as any mainstay battleship like sov's special ability.

posted on January 11th, 2009, 10:17 pm

As much as I like 8472 I don't think they should be playable. I'm honestly in full support of original races, hence what this topic was about in the first place: ideas for how the Noxter will build their base.

posted on January 12th, 2009, 12:19 am

Since when have we relegated ourselves to using Voyager to justify canon? I mean, really? The Borg is like a tamed stingless palpless scorpion in Voyager (I.E. pretty much weaponless) ... plus, 8472 couldn't destroy Voyager, because if Voyager was destroyed, there would be no show. 

posted on January 12th, 2009, 12:53 am

I did not mean for my remark to be taken very seriously . As I have pointed out over and over again, canon is usually... rather contradictory at best between directors, shows and even between episodes. Afterall, the protagonist must survive  (... and yes, there is another source of canon for 8472: the other shows... which never mentioned the race and follow more closely Borg canon as well as Federation canon).

I too found the Cube giving birth to a sphere odd... given the usually stated dimensions of the Cube and Sphere (thus must have been some special type of cube/sphere, eh?)

Actually, we are letting the FO staff decide about 8472, and they have already said no (or at least said that no playable race would be included). If you can think of a plausible way to include 8472 into FO canon, please share and convince as I have of yet only heard the argument that "they exist in Voyager, so we must include them". As far as I remember, 8472 really do have god-ships which destroy everything (they are the only species which can destroy a planet quite quickly remember)... and very little in the way of fleshing out a tech/ship/station tree... not to mention choosing an initial strategum (read: optimize/assimilate for instance)

posted on January 12th, 2009, 12:54 am

i wouldnt call voyager non-canon, but.. come on.. an intrepid class ship, alone in the delta quadrant, fighting multiple species on their way home, including the borg and 8472...
well.. its scifi, so there is no real fact about anything at all.

but all star trek shows had their flaws.

but depending this mod and 8472,, how shall they work out in balance? and how many ships will they get? just the bioship we saw on tv? or all the crap units out of the a2 stock game?

i mean, we saw only one shiptype, and in the episode with the rift to the fluidic space they sent ships like the zerglings in starcraft each one able to destroy a borg ship..

btw. the planetcracker weapon was a combined shot of, i think, 5 or 6 ships.

[Anonymous]

posted on January 12th, 2009, 1:09 am

Last edited by Anonymous on January 14th, 2009, 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i wouldnt call voyager non-canon, but.. come on.. an intrepid class ship, alone in the delta quadrant, fighting multiple species on their way home, including the borg and 8472...
well.. its scifi, so there is no real fact about anything at all.

but all star trek shows had their flaws.

but depending this mod and 8472,, how shall they work out in balance? and how many ships will they get? just the bioship we saw on tv? or all the crap units out of the a2 stock game?

i mean, we saw only one shiptype, and in the episode with the rift to the fluidic space they sent ships like the zerglings in starcraft each one able to destroy a borg ship..

btw. the planetcracker weapon was a combined shot of, i think, 5 or 6 ships.

I see where you're coming from. I did go into the balancing aspect on page 1. Read my post and let me know if it makes sense.
As regards the expansion on 8472, we should note that we saw no Dominion cruisers except the jemhadat beetle ship, the Battleship dreadnought, and the Dominion battleship that Weyoun and dukat used to attack Ds9.
So our pure tech Dom mod and the breen mod are extrapolations as well with none of the cruisers actually canon.

So it would be very interesting to see how we develop 8472 as we did the dominion tech tree.

And this is basically what i was referring to when posting about 8472 here on a Noxter thread. We have a non-canon race that did not do much for gameplay (at least in my opinion  ), such as the Noxter, while we ignore a canon race like 8472 which has much more that can be done to develop its tech tree - a tech tree that can be more interesting with fluidic warp ins for ships, resource gathering that can be unique since fluidic space would entail different resources than those in our normal space.
Statiosn need not even be part of the tech tree since they are basically invading from outside, the research of abilities and introduction of ships will need to be modeled on warp ins for feds, with outposts having unique abilities and mabe even a mix of command center and research outpost (maybe an upgrade grows an extra attached organic extensions or separate structures linked to the "mother") etc.

and for the planet killer - I agree with u - saw the same number, but i believe the central focusing ship was not a battleship but a conduit frigate with a slightly different design - i described this too in an earlier post in this thread

***now of use in noxter 8472 clone thread lol**

posted on January 12th, 2009, 5:57 am

All interesting points about 8472, though it is futile to discuss about them (no pun intended) as the Fleet Ops team has assured they are not playable at all. If you look in the races.odf file, they have 8472 listed as an NPC race. The odds of 8472 being playable in fleet ops is very damn close to zero. So once again, I find it pointless to talk about them here when it's a fact the Noxter are going to playable and that they should be worked on and developed so that they don't come off as an 8472 rip off.

posted on January 12th, 2009, 10:40 am

i think the reason for them to put the noxter above 8472 is simply based on their roleplaying and the freedom to comeup with everything they want since its a non-canon race, so they dont have focus on "could that be canon? is that the right interpretation of them with their playstyle now?" and all this.

so i'm fine with 8472 beeing an npc race on certain maps when they come back.

i never really played the noxter in version 2, so i couldnt care less (but no disrespect since its a creative design no matter what), but i like the general idea of an evolving hive as a base.

only problem i see about this is the maps. often the maps starting points are so close to the moons (or the moons to eachother) that you already get problems often with the mining freighters of the existing fractions (especially with the borg ones, since they got a bigger radius).

[Anonymous]

posted on January 12th, 2009, 2:31 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on January 12th, 2009, 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

All interesting points about 8472, though it is futile to discuss about them (no pun intended) as the Fleet Ops team has assured they are not playable at all. If you look in the races.odf file, they have 8472 listed as an NPC race. The odds of 8472 being playable in fleet ops is very damn close to zero. So once again, I find it pointless to talk about them here when it's a fact the Noxter are going to playable and that they should be worked on and developed so that they don't come off as an 8472 rip off.

ok point taken.
But for my 2 cents worth, no matter how hard one tries, the Noxter are still going to come off as an 8472 clone (or in your terms "rip off" ). Their organic carapace appearance and textures with a tech tree akin to larvae and evolution are too reminiscent of A2's 8472, crossed with Conquest Frontier Wars' Mantis race.
Not to mention the Noxter nebula association is right out of 8472 and fluidic space (btw 8472 used nebulas in original A2 a lot too)

posted on January 12th, 2009, 10:37 pm

Yeah, I guess that was one intent on starting this was to present ideas to distinguish the Noxter from 8472 so that they didn't end up being a clone as they were in 2.0. Though Optec said in another post they are getting a total makeover so I'm excited to see the fruits of that effort.