Not Another Romulan Thread!
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posted on May 25th, 2010, 2:52 am
Last edited by Anonymous on May 25th, 2010, 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
So I was watching 30 Rock the other day, lamenting the fact that MILF Island and Bitch Hunter aren’t real shows, 
when I remembered that people were complaining about Romulan turrets being underpowered.
To be fair, I haven’t used Romulan turrets enough to give a more confident opinion on them, as Romulans shouldn’t need turrets when they know where everybody is anywhere anytime. Personally, the turrets themselves aren’t underpowered or overpowered, as they are cheap and 3-4 end up equaling the same cost and offensive power as a klingon turret or federation torpedo turret. I think what makes the romulan turrets less effective is in fact the extra cost of the singularity transmitter that is required to realistically make turrets useable.
For example: A Klingon turret costs 845/331/34 and has values of 70/80/36. For 1002/551/60 resources, you can get a singularity transmitter and 2 defense batteries. The 2 defense batteries combined have values of 42/54/38. They cost much more, and do far less. This is compounded by the fact that the turrets have ADAI, and are heavily susceptible to support ships. I haven’t checked the odfs to confirm this, but I bet a whole bar of latinum that they are.
I’ve been thinking of a way to make Romulan turrets independent of the singularity transmitter, so that you don’t have to eat the 500 dilithium cost each time you want to place turrets, but still make the transmitter interesting.
The idea is that instead of the batteries requiring the transmitter for energy, they can operate independently, like any normal turret. They no longer have perma cloak, and do not generate special energy. The transmitter would do several things for the turrets. First, each wave would slowly regenerate the shields. This would be different from the transmitter special, which would do it in one big burst. The smaller wave would only add 5% or so.
Second, the transmitter would provide special energy. This would be important, because turrets would behave similarly to the way they do now if you have the cloaking generator up. They will always attempt to cloak if they have energy, and the energy drain would be slow, but enough for the transmitter to fill it up. So if you want your turrets to perma cloak, they would need to be near a transmitter. I think the shield recharge and allowance for perma cloak would make singularities still very beneficial. Also, perhaps building the intel center would increase the sensor range of the turrets. I wouldn’t want anything too strong for that building, as the intel center already provides incredible bonuses as is.
I like this first idea, because it allows you to build turrets without the huge cost of the transmitter, and gives them something interesting. I understand that the idea was to make a turret system similar to the protoss, with a crystal in the middle surrounded by photon cannons. But the singularity is just too expensive for that. I do have another idea that would keep the current system intact.
Make the singularity only cost 100 dilithium, but it only energizes the turrets. Then, in perfect romulan fashion, allow a refit research that would allow you to upgrade singularities to do the passive energy gain to ships. I mean, if all the stock singularity did was provide power to the turrets, then it could be dirt cheap, and would be much more feasible. The defense would be the same as it is now, but maybe the upgrade would add system value so that it could research the implosion special as well.
I think either of these ideas would help the romulan turrets out greatly.
when I remembered that people were complaining about Romulan turrets being underpowered.To be fair, I haven’t used Romulan turrets enough to give a more confident opinion on them, as Romulans shouldn’t need turrets when they know where everybody is anywhere anytime. Personally, the turrets themselves aren’t underpowered or overpowered, as they are cheap and 3-4 end up equaling the same cost and offensive power as a klingon turret or federation torpedo turret. I think what makes the romulan turrets less effective is in fact the extra cost of the singularity transmitter that is required to realistically make turrets useable.
For example: A Klingon turret costs 845/331/34 and has values of 70/80/36. For 1002/551/60 resources, you can get a singularity transmitter and 2 defense batteries. The 2 defense batteries combined have values of 42/54/38. They cost much more, and do far less. This is compounded by the fact that the turrets have ADAI, and are heavily susceptible to support ships. I haven’t checked the odfs to confirm this, but I bet a whole bar of latinum that they are.
I’ve been thinking of a way to make Romulan turrets independent of the singularity transmitter, so that you don’t have to eat the 500 dilithium cost each time you want to place turrets, but still make the transmitter interesting.
The idea is that instead of the batteries requiring the transmitter for energy, they can operate independently, like any normal turret. They no longer have perma cloak, and do not generate special energy. The transmitter would do several things for the turrets. First, each wave would slowly regenerate the shields. This would be different from the transmitter special, which would do it in one big burst. The smaller wave would only add 5% or so.
Second, the transmitter would provide special energy. This would be important, because turrets would behave similarly to the way they do now if you have the cloaking generator up. They will always attempt to cloak if they have energy, and the energy drain would be slow, but enough for the transmitter to fill it up. So if you want your turrets to perma cloak, they would need to be near a transmitter. I think the shield recharge and allowance for perma cloak would make singularities still very beneficial. Also, perhaps building the intel center would increase the sensor range of the turrets. I wouldn’t want anything too strong for that building, as the intel center already provides incredible bonuses as is.
I like this first idea, because it allows you to build turrets without the huge cost of the transmitter, and gives them something interesting. I understand that the idea was to make a turret system similar to the protoss, with a crystal in the middle surrounded by photon cannons. But the singularity is just too expensive for that. I do have another idea that would keep the current system intact.
Make the singularity only cost 100 dilithium, but it only energizes the turrets. Then, in perfect romulan fashion, allow a refit research that would allow you to upgrade singularities to do the passive energy gain to ships. I mean, if all the stock singularity did was provide power to the turrets, then it could be dirt cheap, and would be much more feasible. The defense would be the same as it is now, but maybe the upgrade would add system value so that it could research the implosion special as well.
I think either of these ideas would help the romulan turrets out greatly.
posted on May 25th, 2010, 3:53 am
Well I think you're on the right track. The issue is that, in order to make the turrets actually DO enough damage, they need to have the ability to fight without the transmitter.
Also ... one thing you forgot to take note of in your math is that the Rom turrets are pulse based and really don't do what the Klingon turret can in terms of damage. Even 4 to 5 simply cannot.
Cheap and weak usually does not outweigh strong and expensive. Cubes may be susceptible to disable, but they are still a monster and draw firepower away from other ships
. So too should be the turrets. The Romulan turrets are not up to either task. They are not damage dealers nor are they damage absorbers.
I think you are on the right track with the use of the singularity. In my opinion the Turret itself needs to be armed with either something other than pulses or given then option to be refitted with torpedoes for use against larger ships. My thought was that maybe, as long as the turret has energy, it could fire off torpedoes the way that it does now with it's pulses. That way, if you wanted your turrets to actually have a chance at doing a little damage, they will just need to have a transmitter. Otherwise they remain the pulse-based distractions. If this were to be implemented the defense should remain the same in order to avoid a massive turtling ability.
Also, if torpedoes per 10 energy were given that would also mean that you would quickly run out of cloaking energy if you chose to keep the torps on and cloak.
Torps off = Cloak indefinitely
Torps on = Short cloak
Make sense? That will give the Rommies a short burst of stronger weaponry on opening combat but would cause them to slow down over time as all their ships do. It would also make them choose between brute firepower for a short while or invisible fighting for longer .
Also ... one thing you forgot to take note of in your math is that the Rom turrets are pulse based
and really don't do what the Klingon turret can in terms of damage. Even 4 to 5 simply cannot.Cheap and weak usually does not outweigh strong and expensive. Cubes may be susceptible to disable, but they are still a monster and draw firepower away from other ships
. So too should be the turrets. The Romulan turrets are not up to either task. They are not damage dealers nor are they damage absorbers.I think you are on the right track with the use of the singularity. In my opinion the Turret itself needs to be armed with either something other than pulses or given then option to be refitted with torpedoes for use against larger ships. My thought was that maybe, as long as the turret has energy, it could fire off torpedoes the way that it does now with it's pulses. That way, if you wanted your turrets to actually have a chance at doing a little damage, they will just need to have a transmitter. Otherwise they remain the pulse-based distractions. If this were to be implemented the defense should remain the same in order to avoid a massive turtling ability
.Also, if torpedoes per 10 energy were given that would also mean that you would quickly run out of cloaking energy if you chose to keep the torps on and cloak
.Torps off = Cloak indefinitely
Torps on = Short cloak
Make sense? That will give the Rommies a short burst of stronger weaponry on opening combat but would cause them to slow down over time as all their ships do
. It would also make them choose between brute firepower for a short while or invisible fighting for longer .
posted on May 25th, 2010, 4:50 am
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on May 25th, 2010, 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think armament is fine - it isn't supposed to be a super capable turret at the start like Klingon Heavy Weapon Platforms (the turret gets upgrades to make it more capable). 
What I do think is necessary is what Mal pointed out - that the turrets need to be more readily available for defense. If you spend the money on a Singularity, your nice easily attackable expansion suddenly became a veritable gold mine, ripe for the picking (or digging).
Putting down some turrets just makes using the Romulan turret system a very expensive endeavor at the start of the game, when it should be more logical that a defense system starts out relatively cheapily for, you know, defense (or at least discouragement)
. I'd be for either of Mal's ideas, as I'd like to be able to use the turret system more readily.
EDIT: forgot punctuation and smilies.
What I do think is necessary is what Mal pointed out - that the turrets need to be more readily available for defense. If you spend the money on a Singularity, your nice easily attackable expansion suddenly became a veritable gold mine, ripe for the picking (or digging).
Putting down some turrets just makes using the Romulan turret system a very expensive endeavor at the start of the game, when it should be more logical that a defense system starts out relatively cheapily for, you know, defense (or at least discouragement)
. I'd be for either of Mal's ideas, as I'd like to be able to use the turret system more readily. EDIT: forgot punctuation and smilies.
posted on May 25th, 2010, 5:03 am
Ah 1 more post and Boggz will have 1500! 
I like this idea; it seems pretty cool. I also think that the artillery special should be more like the Serka's. It would seem more fitting.
I like this idea; it seems pretty cool. I also think that the artillery special should be more like the Serka's. It would seem more fitting.
posted on May 25th, 2010, 7:15 am
posted on May 25th, 2010, 10:44 am
posted on May 25th, 2010, 11:43 am
posted on May 25th, 2010, 11:46 am
posted on May 25th, 2010, 11:48 am
posted on May 25th, 2010, 12:21 pm
Optec, I only fear that making the turrets more expensive (but more powerful) doesn't address the issue that the transmitter makes turrets cost prohibitive. I love the idea of the transmitters, they just break the bank too much. I'd rather spend that money building rhienn refits and talons to simply keep track of where my opponent is, rather than spend all that money on turrets.
posted on May 25th, 2010, 12:24 pm
posted on May 25th, 2010, 12:27 pm
posted on May 25th, 2010, 12:31 pm
posted on May 25th, 2010, 4:45 pm
Away from the AI talk ....
Mal makes the point that I agree with: that sadly the turrets themselves are just not worth using without the transmitter and the process of setting up a trans + 4 turrets to equal the firepower of anything else is just not worth it.
Being so fragile, I feel that they could welcome a small firepower increase or special-fun-superhappy-sneaky-romulan thing without throwing the balance or making them der uber turret. Being so fragile means they can lose that firepower incredibly fast, which I believe would make it ok.
Dom you said that you oppose a firepower hike and I understand where you're coming from, even agree with you, but right now the pulses are just about worthless on anything besides a few early destroyers. Without the Trans the thing can't even finish off a B'rel. That's a poor trade. Maybe just a small Rommie-esque help would be able to give it a hand.
Mal makes the point that I agree with: that sadly the turrets themselves are just not worth using without the transmitter and the process of setting up a trans + 4 turrets to equal the firepower of anything else is just not worth it.
Being so fragile, I feel that they could welcome a small firepower increase or special-fun-superhappy-sneaky-romulan thing without throwing the balance or making them der uber turret. Being so fragile means they can lose that firepower incredibly fast, which I believe would make it ok.
Dom you said that you oppose a firepower hike and I understand where you're coming from, even agree with you, but right now the pulses are just about worthless on anything besides a few early destroyers. Without the Trans the thing can't even finish off a B'rel. That's a poor trade. Maybe just a small Rommie-esque help would be able to give it a hand
.posted on May 25th, 2010, 4:48 pm
I'm fine with a power hike - just not a change in weaponry .
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