Klingon overhaul - ideas?

[Anonymous]

posted on July 26th, 2009, 3:46 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on July 26th, 2009, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hello,

The new topic that seems to be getting attention at this time is the Klingon arsenal. We already have a couple of threads dealing with this theme.

Since optec confirmed that he will be overhauling the klingon style to have more klingon ships given a unique role, I was hoping to hear if we could have specific passives that are not only as unique as everlasting design, but for the klings bring out their warrior nature.

A good example are the romulans whose passive uniqueness includes long range fire and higher system values.

For the klings I was hoping to have thsi implemented as follows:

At this time several kling ships have issues in combat primarily due to their weaker shields and close firing range. Most ships are rendered at 50% shielding before they can even get in range to unload the weapons.
Yet higher weapons are sooo Klingon, and for balance reasons we cannot just give them higher shields as well.

To overcome this then I would recommend we have a dichotomous approach based on kling ship class.

1. Smaller Kling vessels such as BOPs and Kvorts should have much quicker speeds to compensate for their short range. In effect I would look at speeds about 2x a rhienn/sabre.
This will allow them to get in cloase when struck from afar, and flee in case they are outgunned - giving them greater staying power.



2. Vessels like the Kbeajq, Vorcha, FOF cruiser (been a while since i played), and Neghvar have a rather different role as mainstay attack cruisers of the Klingon armada.
These vessels would therefore have the standard stats on construction and entering into combat - Take for example the Kbeajq at 19 offense 19 defense and 17 system.
But depending on engagement type they would reallocate their stats to fit the situation. What i mean is:

If these ships are attacked such tht they are unable to return fire (whether from afar or from a nebula) a proportion of the ship's offense power will be redirected to the defense stat.
Once the kling ship (as listed above) gets in range to start firing he will then divert firepower from his shield stats to the offense.
In case multiple ships are attacking the kling from varying distances, the target of the king ship (as it works now, either manually set by the player or  auto trgeted when the vessel is shot at) determines the allocation. This allows the player to determine how the ship will react and whether to reallocate power to go for the distant target - in  which case the nearer ship will be hit with lower offense power- or to go for teh nearer one - in which case the distant guy will hit his lower shields.

In our example if we take the Kbeajq we will have a scenario of the kbeajq being attacked from afar by a rhienn torp refit. Eahc time the kbeajq is hit by teh rhienn of course his shields weaken, but on the first hit the kbeajq redirects 3 points of offense to his defense, thereby increasing his in battle stats.
taking him to about 10 offense and 28 defense while not in battle.
Once he gets in range and starts firing his power is reallocated and he starts off with normal  19 191 10.
But quickly his power reallocation in combat comes to 28 10 10.

The amount of reallocation will vary by ship class for example a kbeajq should not get this much, of variance - maybe say only 3-5 points. Whereas the negh would get about 10 to 12 points of variance.
Also as a ship ranks up we can have certain reallocations negated or augmented based on balance requirements to allow for the ship's newer stats or vice versa.

This would help keep the klings pretty much with the current hull strengths (i dont want them to be miniature borg), as well as bring out the actual klingon in-combat adaptiveness (like the intermix adaptations in the Dom war).
In combination with the specific roles for kling ships if these 2 features were applied for Bops and cruisers respectively we would have a more Klingon style.

NOTE: this excludes Support ships completely. I do not see Vupas that already have special weapons having this.


hope to hear your feedback.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on July 26th, 2009, 4:04 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on July 26th, 2009, 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In response to idea 1: 2x the speed of a Rhienn or Saber would put Klingon units at physics 240/280 (if saber is with hyper impulse). As Klingon B'rels are already the fastest destroyer in the game... this speed would be ridiculous in my opinion. Maybe a tiny speed boost (10) for several of the units would do the trick, but to have the B'rels and K'vorts faster than the fastest unit in the game (scouts) would be a caricature I think.

For idea 2: it still doesn't sound very Klingon to me--maybe for another faction, or perhaps if this was coupled with something honor related... As far as weaponry implementation goes, I think that Zebh's idea of having attack power increase over time in a battle (pretty much the inverse of Romulan stats) would work very nicely. Likewise, perhaps an increased fidelity/durability of specific system would do (right now, the system value makes them quite weak... which strikes me as odd for a faction that wants its systems to work well in the heat of battle).

The Vutpa' is a battleship. You are thinking of either the BortaS or the Qaw'Duj (those are the support ships).

EDIT: I do have a question... if the offensive value goes to the defensive systems... when the shields are damaged or gone, what happens when the offense gets superpowered again? Does the defense go to near zero... or... I guess I'm confused about this aspect of the implementation 

posted on July 26th, 2009, 5:12 pm

Well, in regard to Idea 1: I think doubling the speed permanently is too much, but as posted in another klingon thread, why not implement something like the romulan fast fire, but for speed. For x seconds when engaging in combat klingon vessels gain a speed boost of x. Since the romulans were possible in FO i think this should work too.

Another option is the use of the cloaking device, often we saw klingons decloak and fire, taking their enemies by surprise. Sure, this is the whole intent of cloaking devices and all ships using them would have it, but let´s say klingons are especially capable with surprise attacks, gaining a dmagae bonus immediately after decloaking.

The increase offense over time idea i also very fitting.

posted on July 26th, 2009, 5:15 pm

Another thing that could be done for smaller vessels is give them something similar to the Saber's evasive manuvers passive.  B'rels seem far more manuverable, and we've seen them do hit and run attacks where they evaded enemy fire.  So giving them an increase in pulse and torpedoe miss rate would be nice.  Maybe we could just remove the passive from the saber and make that cheaper so they both don't have it!

The second idea isn't technically feasible because you would need completely new odfs for each ship change and for every rank.  If you have 3 (Defensive, Normal, Offensive) like is being suggested, it just becomes a ton of extra files if you do multiple ships this way.  You could do that with one ship perhaps, like the Susa (where it changes odfs to get the increased offensive boost, then changes odfs again to get the much lower offense, then back to normal) ,but if you start doing it with half the fleet it would be too many.

I would love to see the speed upgrade moved to the Armory.  Having access to that earlier in the game would help a lot.

I think the action that defined Klingon tactics for me was seeing Kurn trigger the solar flare while being pursued by two other birds of prey, destroying those ships in the process (who says klingons always have to face their enemy? ) If there were some way that they could control the environment to their tactical advantage, I feel that would be most klingon.  I wouldn't mind seeing a change to gravity mines, so that they could actually be set in space, similar to romulan plasma mines.  You can only drop them by targeting a ship or station, and only if you are in range.  Making that ability more useful, or just changing it in some way would help a lot, I think.

posted on July 26th, 2009, 7:03 pm

I think b'rels need to have higher life support. I had three of mine lose life support, and I had to transport over to them to keep them from being destroyed.

I also think kbjuks(whatever the kitinga refit is called) thingy should also get a small speed boost, or instead a higher hull armor.  Either one to help it last longer in battle.

my literal 2 cents. :alien:

posted on July 26th, 2009, 7:06 pm

If you can't remember a Klingon ship's name, just call it the Que'bec, and everyone will know what you're talking about because it's very Klingon sounding.  Like it's important to build as many Que'becs as possible, and then tech up to the Que'bec station, remebering to fire all of your Que'becs at once to get the most out of them!

posted on July 26th, 2009, 7:08 pm

Well, in regard to Idea 1: I think doubling the speed permanently is too much, but as posted in another klingon thread, why not implement something like the romulan fast fire, but for speed. For x seconds when engaging in combat klingon vessels gain a speed boost of x. Since the romulans were possible in FO i think this should work too.

Exactly my opinion.


And the hull of Klingon ships should be stronger. Their ships always look like heavy armored.

[Anonymous]

posted on July 26th, 2009, 7:11 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on July 26th, 2009, 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If you can't remember a Klingon ship's name, just call it the Que'bec, and everyone will know what you're talking about because it's very Klingon sounding.  Like it's important to build as many Que'becs as possible, and then tech up to the Que'bec station, remebering to fire all of your Que'becs at once to get the most out of them!

ROFLMAO

[Anonymous]

posted on July 26th, 2009, 8:01 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on July 26th, 2009, 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

For the speed - I guess I too agree with Darthsashur. We can have a speed boost for the first movement after coming to a standstill, or changing course.
If the course of the klingon ship were to be changed, then there would be an extra spurt to allow them the chance to get the head start.

I for one am not at all for making klingon hulls armoured. There was never any indication in any show that klings had armoured hulls. If we see DS9 vorchas and Brels were easil torn apart by jem hadar rams and dominion firepower.
Seeing Klings as micro borg is not at all klingon.

.

For idea 2: it still doesn't sound very Klingon to me--maybe for another faction, or perhaps if this was coupled with something honor related... As far as weaponry implementation goes, I think that Zebh's idea of having attack power increase over time in a battle (pretty much the inverse of Romulan stats) would work very nicely. Likewise, perhaps an increased fidelity/durability of specific system would do (right now, the system value makes them quite weak... which strikes me as odd for a faction that wants its systems to work well in the heat of battle).

The Vutpa' is a battleship. You are thinking of either the BortaS or the Qaw'Duj (those are the support ships).

EDIT: I do have a question... if the offensive value goes to the defensive systems... when the shields are damaged or gone, what happens when the offense gets superpowered again? Does the defense go to near zero... or... I guess I'm confused about this aspect of the implementation  

Yes, I meant the bortas and Qawduj. As i said, I havent played the game in a while

We an go for the increased firepower overtime for a kling ship as Zebh said, but only if it weakens the shields proportionately.
But conversely, if my klingon shields are already weak (here i mean by stats not damage.. a brel for example would have defense 13) I do not want then to be breached when being fired at by a distant target. So logically the inverse relationship of shield to weapon would be the most equitable.

In effect Zebh and I are not saying different things. They are essentially the same.

Honor is rather another klingon way of looking at experience. I see no special resource or passive ability to it, other than the way the rankup is implemented. We ma be able to have a differnt klingon system of ranking built around honor.
Meaning surviving an engagement or capturing enemy ships or rescuing miners by merely driving away targets could also be trapped as events in game that can go to honoring the kling vessel and providing it based on ship class with extra abilities.
These abilities could be passive abilities such as the ability to fire while decloaking instead of having to decloak and fire.... maybe this too could be part of the klingon style.
But other than honor being another form of ranking up, not very mcuh can be done for it on its own.


As regards the edit - we are not taking actual weapon or shield strength, we are taking a stat. Stats never go to zero. the merely increase with experience.

To clarify I used the stats as an example to get numbers so as to elucidate how  the redireection of power will work.
Since this is going to be a passive ability, it iwll not be seen. Essentially it is like the romulan implementation with a twist.


btw - Mal
Kurn never triggered the flare. he merely used the terrain and the impending nature of the existing star to win.
The brels were merely pursuing and lured in.
It was a tactic that could be used by any captain of any race who knew the star and what to expect. nlo special klingon ability was implied here.

posted on July 26th, 2009, 8:23 pm

Well, in Enterprise we know for instance that Klingon hulls were very heavily armored (we learned that in the gas giant episode with the Vulture class [I believe it was Vulture class] ). Generally Klingon ships look more armored too… but that is just looking, not knowing ^^ . I don’t think this would cause them to be mini Borg though. I mean, you could just make them have weaker shields and stronger hull to compensate of course (note that I am not for or against this idea though ).

Likewise, I thought Kurn used the warp drive to trigger the flare…
Memory Alpha “Kurn's ship, the Hegh'ta, with Worf now aboard as tactical officer, is narrowly escaping destruction by two other Birds-of-Prey near a sun. Most of the bridge crew lie dead, and the Hegh'ta is losing shield strength fast. Kurn uses a clever technique of engaging warp drive near the star's surface, causing a solar flare which destroys the two pursuers.”

We an go for the increased firepower overtime for a kling ship as Zebh said, but only if it weakens the shields proportionately.
But conversely, if my klingon shields are already weak (here i mean by stats not damage.. a brel for example would have defense 13) I do not want then to be breached when being fired at by a distant target. So logically the inverse relationship of shield to weapon would be the most equitable.

Why should increasing firepower over time weaken the shields though? I think this is still somewhat different from what Zebh is saying, because what he was talking about is that over time firepower would steadily increase… nothing to do with defensive capabilities, though I guess it would max out too—just like the Romies ability.

As regards the edit - we are not taking actual weapon or shield strength, we are taking a stat. Stats never go to zero. the merely increase with experience.

Stats do go to zero. Remember the old Nebula ability (offensive value went to zero)? However I think I see what you are saying now, so no bother—my mistake .

[Anonymous]

posted on July 26th, 2009, 8:43 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on July 26th, 2009, 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, in Enterprise we know for instance that Klingon hulls were very heavily armored (we learned that in the gas giant episode with the Vulture class [I believe it was Vulture class] ). Generally Klingon ships look more armored too… but that is just looking, not knowing ^^ . I don’t think this would cause them to be mini Borg though. I mean, you could just make them have weaker shields and stronger hull to compensate of course (note that I am not for or against this idea though ).

Perhaps in enterprise. But in DS9 the jemhadar rams and collisions with Chintka outposts saw klingon hulls doing the same as feds.
I for one loved the sequences where the jems rammed through the brels and Vorchas...
perhaps between enterprise and DS9 something changed with the feds.
But since FO is post DS9, I prefer sticking with DS9 as a closer representation than Enterprise where klingon ships are being called Warbirds........

Likewise, I thought Kurn used the warp drive to trigger the flare…
Memory Alpha “Kurn's ship, the Hegh'ta, with Worf now aboard as tactical officer, is narrowly escaping destruction by two other Birds-of-Prey near a sun. Most of the bridge crew lie dead, and the Hegh'ta is losing shield strength fast. Kurn uses a clever technique of engaging warp drive near the star's surface, causing a solar flare which destroys the two pursuers.”

fair enough. memory alpha says it. But in the episode itself, there is no clear indication that his warp triggered the flare. nor would anyone who has seen the episode actually feel that the flare was triggered by his warp.
this part is fan speculation of the show. but i digress since it is on memory-alpha.

Why should increasing firepower over time weaken the shields though? I think this is still somewhat different from what Zebh is saying, because what he was talking about is that over time firepower would steadily increase… nothing to do with defensive capabilities, though I guess it would max out too—just like the Romies ability.
Stats do go to zero. Remember the old Nebula ability (offensive value went to zero)? However I think I see what you are saying now, so no bother—my mistake .

The main point I was trying to drive at was - why should a ship's firepower increase over time in battle for the sake of it without any counterbalance?
So, If I am facing klingons, why should the ships just keep piling on the firepower without any counterbalance.
Secondly, if the klingon ship is being hit from afar since it has close range weapons, klingons designing close range weapons would liek to have some chance at using the useless weapon power till they engage the enemy.


My aim was to address both these issues not just one or the other, and tying them in seems to me to achieve a good balance between the 2.

So my point was that while a ship has the ship class's standard power source, I looked at it as how any warrior in any battle would use his shield and sword, or batleth.
when facing archers, you lower us swoird and put ur strength behind ur shield. Worf and kang and koloth in battle traiing too, when facing an attack they could not meet, first put their backs behind repelling the bolts, move in and then when in range move from defense ro offense - many a times lowering the defensive guard (weve all seen the foot swipes and side hits from dax etc getting in when the klings get engrossed in focusing on their attack).

It is exactly this that I am looking for in klingon ship combat.

If you cannot hit your enemy cos u know your ship's inherent weakness and strenght, you divert pwoer to the shields till you engage. Once u engage you unload ur barrage focusing more on firwpoer.

Honestly I have not read Zebh;s idea before you quoted it. From what you quoted, it sounds akin to mine, without the shield counterbalance aspect. 

Hope this helped clarify what I am trying to describe here.

posted on July 26th, 2009, 10:55 pm

fair enough. memory alpha says it. But in the episode itself, there is no clear indication that his warp triggered the flare. nor would anyone who has seen the episode actually feel that the flare was triggered by his warp.

Well, I've seen the episode.  There's a clear wake that comes off the ship as it goes to warp.  When that wake hits the star, a solar flare immediately shoots up at that precise spot and destroys the pursuing vessels.  I'm not sure how anyone could mistake that as anything other than Kurn triggering a solar flare.

They do it again on DS9 in one of the first episodes of season 7, where they use some sort of beam to trigger an even bigger solar flare to blow up the monac shipyards, so it seems like a pretty Klingon tactic to me.

I really like your idea, Darthashur.  Giving them a temporary speed boost would help them greatly.  If Optec and DC are able to do that, then it's beyond me.  They were able to do the increased speed on romulan weapons by manipulating the shot delay cycle.  This is from one of the rhienn weapon odfs.

savefirecyclepoint = 4
shotcycleresettime = 15
shotdelay0 = 2.8
shotdelay1 = 3.2
shotdelay2 = 3.6
shotdelay3 = 4
shotdelay4 = 4.4

So each time they fire, it takes just a little longer, and it's saved on shotdelay 4 until 15 seconds has passed, if I'm reading this right.  So increasing the Klingon's firing speed could be just the same thing, but in reverse.  You could start off with the longer attack time, then decrease the time until it's at it's fastest.  Pausing your firing for 15 seconds or some other set time would reset it to the longer rate for Klingons.  That's why Zebh's idea is so good; because it's doable, and it would be pretty balanced.

posted on July 27th, 2009, 1:10 am

The speed is possible with a replace weapon, like the hyper impulse, and just adding extreme acceleration to the ships physics, 'cept it only lasts for  little while, rather than until disabled.

posted on July 27th, 2009, 1:33 am

Yes, like the Sus'a's current ability 

posted on July 27th, 2009, 9:29 am

The main point I was trying to drive at was - why should a ship's firepower increase over time in battle for the sake of it without any counterbalance?
So, If I am facing klingons, why should the ships just keep piling on the firepower without any counterbalance.

When the disruptor banks (and weapons officer) warms up during the battle they could work more efficiently (and do more damage). (Similar thing with combustion engine: when it is warm it works better)