Klingon or Romulan decloak attack/warpin
Post ideas and suggestions on new features or improvements here.
1, 2
posted on July 13th, 2011, 1:55 am
What if the "warpin" part of this idea was dropped? Could the core idea work?
Let's say that you start with ships you had to build. It might be cool to have a way to tell a raiding group to make strafing runs on a target - go in cloaked, decloak and make a pass or two, then recloack and fall back to a predetermined location. To keep it from being overpowered, limit the number and type of ships that can participate - maybe only B'rels can do it.
Whether or not it proved to be very destructive, it would be very Klingon. It might also be a neat little diversion while you're focusing on making a larger attack.
Let's say that you start with ships you had to build. It might be cool to have a way to tell a raiding group to make strafing runs on a target - go in cloaked, decloak and make a pass or two, then recloack and fall back to a predetermined location. To keep it from being overpowered, limit the number and type of ships that can participate - maybe only B'rels can do it.
Whether or not it proved to be very destructive, it would be very Klingon. It might also be a neat little diversion while you're focusing on making a larger attack.
posted on July 13th, 2011, 10:54 am
What about an ability like select a group of ships, use an ability on a section of the map, your ships cloak out of your view, and then reappear where you selected and attacked for a period of time, but you had no control over what they do.
Might be a good distraction tool. I'm not sure in what way it would be an advantage except the ships could literally attack anywhere you want. Maybe weapons could be powered up a bit too. Maybe it could cost supply but if all ships die you get the supply back.
Sorry for any uber long sentences and bad grammar.
Might be a good distraction tool. I'm not sure in what way it would be an advantage except the ships could literally attack anywhere you want. Maybe weapons could be powered up a bit too. Maybe it could cost supply but if all ships die you get the supply back.
Sorry for any uber long sentences and bad grammar.
posted on July 15th, 2011, 2:17 am
Hmm, I dunno. last shot. lol
Well, I'm not sure how long it is until we get 3rd and 4th Avatars. Or when/what is to be included with a Klingon faction update.
Perhaps a new ship design.
It would still involve ships uncloaking. But perhaps it can be edited to be slightly more appealing to some, and not infringe on those who see it as a warpin. Slightly confusing, because it is not like the federation are the only ones who call for assistance etc. But to keep the feature as Federation as possible, fair is fair I suppose so long as that is what the devs want for warpins being federation.
The new ship is a Klingon support ship. The ship has very few special abilities for enhancing your other ships that you've built. It allows for several birds of prey to uncloak and attack at random. Essentially, similar to a carrier. However it isn't a constant ability like for avalon and other carriers, ie dominion etc. It is a special, lasts for a certain amount of time, then takes time to be used again.
The ship calls upon Klingon houses to send birds of prey and warriors to join in combat for various reasons. This could be for a future avatar, but also works with the current avatars. Martok was seen commanding a bird of prey. Martok calling upon the houses of fellow Klingons to send their best birds of prey to join in combat with the General would be a great honour for any Klingon. Songs of glory will be sung for the battles with Martok against the ... Federation, Borg, Romulan, Dominion etc. The ability allows for 4-5 birds of prey to uncloak and attack under the control of the AI, but you cant control what they target. Last 10-15 seconds.
Taqroja is resourceful and able to convince other houses to assist her in times of need. She is able to procure small destroyers such as birds of prey, but also larger kvorts. She must pay a small amount, (75 di 75 tri, or small supply cost) in exchange for the use of kvorts. The ability allows for one bird of prey, and 2 kvorts (or whatever) Since she pays for the ability, maybe she still gets the other birds of prey, as well as the kvorts.
The special comes with some tweaks:
1. All ships have varied stats. Often a couple extra points to either offensive or defensive. Other houses are only sending their best warriors to aid Martok, and Taqroja is only receiving from other Klingons who are in the trade of battling in a less conventional sense (for hire). These ships are generally slightly stronger than their counterparts. They are also generally slightly faster. 5-10 speed.
2. The ships serve as cover for your units. When enemy fleets witness Klingon vessels from other houses (would fit in nicely if we put the markings of Klingon houses on ships as I believe has been suggested somewhere). Fear of being suddenly outnumbered and knowing that other houses might be present, enemy ships temporarily target the uncloaking vessels exclusively for 5-10 seconds.
3. Birds of prey or Kvorts that appear are not bound to the specially designed vessel, in fact, an essential part of their use is to stray from the new ship in several ways. One, the ability could be used to help your ships retreat. The vessels focus specifically on attacking ships and keeping them occupied if you so choose to retreat. If you stay and fight with them, they are even more of an asset. In the case of enemy ships that attempt to retreat, the uncloaked vessels automatically chase them (if possible, ships priority target ships that are attempting to run away, or just the engines subsystem specifically). This would either allow for preventing these ships to chase you down, or to prevent them from repairing at a nearby yard. These ships are very purposeful. It is not to destroy ships in general. They are there to take enemy fire, target engine subsystem, or weapons, and do shield damage, (they won't target the weakest ship going for a kill). It is AI controlled, and they attempt to cause subsystem damage to multiple ships.
4. The ship itself has a rather average rating. It's offensive is slightly reduced, but with stronger defenses and system settings. A support vessel.
5. Ship limit one.
6. Twist we could play with. If the ship is destroyed during the 15 seconds a small fleet uncloaks, the ships may remain to avenge the ship that died in battle. Price to pay, you have to choose when its destroys. If you choose to keep the ships, you cant build a second ship until all those ships are destroyed. You would get control of them. If you decide not to keep them, they leave after the time is up. And you can rebuild the ship and get more reinforcements. So, best to destroy the ship between the attacks. (or omit this part, and the ship is destroyed, they remain for the 15 seconds, then you start over)
The only way I can see this being like a warpin, is that you are getting ships you didnt build. It doesn't need to be for free. Other than that, it so much different in my view from warpins. One, its almost just like a carrier. instead of holding the ships in its bays, it just calls for them, but it is similar. But it is less, as carriers keep their fighters indefinitely, this is set to timer. Which is the next point, the ships are only temporary, with an undetermined timer (between usage, not for how long they stay... although that to is really not set in stone). The ship you build can be destroyed. So it is not based on the station. However, as this is Klingons we are talking about, a huge techtree to consider. Can be placed in battle yard preferably, or imperial. Or a new station. So it takes much more focus. You cant call upon ships to 'appear' anywhere. They appear near the ship. So you still need to manage your fleets accordingly. Even more unlike warpins, probably more balanced as well. If for a new avatar, it could be something like avatar: coalition houses. A feature that allows houses to combine forces. Gives a random undefined set of characteristics that give that particular factions ships a wide range of potential.
It is specific to destroyers much more. Federation are sending a distress call for any ship, class, size, design, what have you. This is not a distress call, it is klingon warriors and their quest for combat (and for a good drinking song). The ships that join are also specific, not random. You are getting either birds of prey or kvorts. Or whatever is chosen (maybe kbeajq or something want to be thrown in as a possibility too). I dunno, while I will admit to the similarity in that these ships are 'free' or 'appear' and presumably use 'warp' as their method of travel, I really think I've developed the idea enough so that it is markedly different as well, and suitable to the faction I am suggesting... ie Klingons.
Optec already responded about not wanting to share warpin feature with other races. So either in the end he reads the idea and likes it, decides its different from warpins... or despite a nice effort to convince him and others otherwise, still thinks its to similar and leaves it out. Which I can live with, really is his choice.
As for the discussion aspect... I really don't understand some responses to a lot of threads in the idea feature section. Not just in my ideas, but lots of people. For instance, a common response I see is that 'this race doesn't need to be changed. it doesnt need more of this, a weaker that, stronger etc'. Or a specific ship, feature etc. While this makes sense to a point, and can be validated with examples... at the same time you have to balance this with a desire to have growth and new things. This is a game in development, a great example of one. Do we really all want the Dominion to stay exactly the same 10 patches from now? Of course, we want Dominion to still be DOMINION, in gameplay and what not etc, but giving it differences, something new etc shouldnt be taken out of consideration for simple community discussions. I consider in the interest of 'multiplayer' to be universally a sound reason. If something really would screw up multiplayer, that is a huge base for the game, so thats significant. I dunno, I guess its all contextual as well. Depends on the idea. What it is. What it affects etc.
Wow. super long post. ahha, sorry bout that. hopefully for a quick write up it remained coherent and all, if I blabbered, again, apologies.
Well, I'm not sure how long it is until we get 3rd and 4th Avatars. Or when/what is to be included with a Klingon faction update.
Perhaps a new ship design.
It would still involve ships uncloaking. But perhaps it can be edited to be slightly more appealing to some, and not infringe on those who see it as a warpin. Slightly confusing, because it is not like the federation are the only ones who call for assistance etc. But to keep the feature as Federation as possible, fair is fair I suppose so long as that is what the devs want for warpins being federation.
The new ship is a Klingon support ship. The ship has very few special abilities for enhancing your other ships that you've built. It allows for several birds of prey to uncloak and attack at random. Essentially, similar to a carrier. However it isn't a constant ability like for avalon and other carriers, ie dominion etc. It is a special, lasts for a certain amount of time, then takes time to be used again.
The ship calls upon Klingon houses to send birds of prey and warriors to join in combat for various reasons. This could be for a future avatar, but also works with the current avatars. Martok was seen commanding a bird of prey. Martok calling upon the houses of fellow Klingons to send their best birds of prey to join in combat with the General would be a great honour for any Klingon. Songs of glory will be sung for the battles with Martok against the ... Federation, Borg, Romulan, Dominion etc. The ability allows for 4-5 birds of prey to uncloak and attack under the control of the AI, but you cant control what they target. Last 10-15 seconds.
Taqroja is resourceful and able to convince other houses to assist her in times of need. She is able to procure small destroyers such as birds of prey, but also larger kvorts. She must pay a small amount, (75 di 75 tri, or small supply cost) in exchange for the use of kvorts. The ability allows for one bird of prey, and 2 kvorts (or whatever) Since she pays for the ability, maybe she still gets the other birds of prey, as well as the kvorts.
The special comes with some tweaks:
1. All ships have varied stats. Often a couple extra points to either offensive or defensive. Other houses are only sending their best warriors to aid Martok, and Taqroja is only receiving from other Klingons who are in the trade of battling in a less conventional sense (for hire). These ships are generally slightly stronger than their counterparts. They are also generally slightly faster. 5-10 speed.
2. The ships serve as cover for your units. When enemy fleets witness Klingon vessels from other houses (would fit in nicely if we put the markings of Klingon houses on ships as I believe has been suggested somewhere). Fear of being suddenly outnumbered and knowing that other houses might be present, enemy ships temporarily target the uncloaking vessels exclusively for 5-10 seconds.
3. Birds of prey or Kvorts that appear are not bound to the specially designed vessel, in fact, an essential part of their use is to stray from the new ship in several ways. One, the ability could be used to help your ships retreat. The vessels focus specifically on attacking ships and keeping them occupied if you so choose to retreat. If you stay and fight with them, they are even more of an asset. In the case of enemy ships that attempt to retreat, the uncloaked vessels automatically chase them (if possible, ships priority target ships that are attempting to run away, or just the engines subsystem specifically). This would either allow for preventing these ships to chase you down, or to prevent them from repairing at a nearby yard. These ships are very purposeful. It is not to destroy ships in general. They are there to take enemy fire, target engine subsystem, or weapons, and do shield damage, (they won't target the weakest ship going for a kill). It is AI controlled, and they attempt to cause subsystem damage to multiple ships.
4. The ship itself has a rather average rating. It's offensive is slightly reduced, but with stronger defenses and system settings. A support vessel.
5. Ship limit one.
6. Twist we could play with. If the ship is destroyed during the 15 seconds a small fleet uncloaks, the ships may remain to avenge the ship that died in battle. Price to pay, you have to choose when its destroys. If you choose to keep the ships, you cant build a second ship until all those ships are destroyed. You would get control of them. If you decide not to keep them, they leave after the time is up. And you can rebuild the ship and get more reinforcements. So, best to destroy the ship between the attacks. (or omit this part, and the ship is destroyed, they remain for the 15 seconds, then you start over)
The only way I can see this being like a warpin, is that you are getting ships you didnt build. It doesn't need to be for free. Other than that, it so much different in my view from warpins. One, its almost just like a carrier. instead of holding the ships in its bays, it just calls for them, but it is similar. But it is less, as carriers keep their fighters indefinitely, this is set to timer. Which is the next point, the ships are only temporary, with an undetermined timer (between usage, not for how long they stay... although that to is really not set in stone). The ship you build can be destroyed. So it is not based on the station. However, as this is Klingons we are talking about, a huge techtree to consider. Can be placed in battle yard preferably, or imperial. Or a new station. So it takes much more focus. You cant call upon ships to 'appear' anywhere. They appear near the ship. So you still need to manage your fleets accordingly. Even more unlike warpins, probably more balanced as well. If for a new avatar, it could be something like avatar: coalition houses. A feature that allows houses to combine forces. Gives a random undefined set of characteristics that give that particular factions ships a wide range of potential.
It is specific to destroyers much more. Federation are sending a distress call for any ship, class, size, design, what have you. This is not a distress call, it is klingon warriors and their quest for combat (and for a good drinking song). The ships that join are also specific, not random. You are getting either birds of prey or kvorts. Or whatever is chosen (maybe kbeajq or something want to be thrown in as a possibility too). I dunno, while I will admit to the similarity in that these ships are 'free' or 'appear' and presumably use 'warp' as their method of travel, I really think I've developed the idea enough so that it is markedly different as well, and suitable to the faction I am suggesting... ie Klingons.
Optec already responded about not wanting to share warpin feature with other races. So either in the end he reads the idea and likes it, decides its different from warpins... or despite a nice effort to convince him and others otherwise, still thinks its to similar and leaves it out. Which I can live with, really is his choice.
As for the discussion aspect... I really don't understand some responses to a lot of threads in the idea feature section. Not just in my ideas, but lots of people. For instance, a common response I see is that 'this race doesn't need to be changed. it doesnt need more of this, a weaker that, stronger etc'. Or a specific ship, feature etc. While this makes sense to a point, and can be validated with examples... at the same time you have to balance this with a desire to have growth and new things. This is a game in development, a great example of one. Do we really all want the Dominion to stay exactly the same 10 patches from now? Of course, we want Dominion to still be DOMINION, in gameplay and what not etc, but giving it differences, something new etc shouldnt be taken out of consideration for simple community discussions. I consider in the interest of 'multiplayer' to be universally a sound reason. If something really would screw up multiplayer, that is a huge base for the game, so thats significant. I dunno, I guess its all contextual as well. Depends on the idea. What it is. What it affects etc.
Wow. super long post. ahha, sorry bout that. hopefully for a quick write up it remained coherent and all, if I blabbered, again, apologies.
posted on July 26th, 2011, 7:54 am
In my opinion, Romulans should drop this idea, they're sneaky but their ships are slow at warp (TNG episode :Tinman).
For Klingons, however, I like the general idea of it but there shouldn't be any relation to the "warp-in". it can be called "giant debt" or something of the sort (something honourable).The ships should come in a maximum distance to the station (say 1min in a Negh-var) and must not be anywhere very close to any enemy station that you know of. Next I think that you should be able to keep the ships (not control them, just control their autonomy levels. They repair by themselves) for x amount of time. If the ship(s) get destroyed you have to chose a ship to cloak out and give supply, maybe a bit of Di or Tri as well. You should be able to chose your ships (but you can't get a Negh-var when you're in a field yard, it has to be a ship that you can build and can pay for).
Advantages to fed warp-in.
Disadvantages to Warp-in
I think that this would actually fit in the Klingon personality (honourable) and their duty to repay old (and new) debts I also believe that there should be a maximum limit to the amount of time you can call in ships (say normal is 7 times Martok(chancellor) is 10 and TaQ'roja(dishonourable) is 5)
for me the two main advantages that Warpins have are
1: Their surprise attacks
2: low cost (destroyed or not)
and in both of these the Klingons don't do it well so? the only excuse I can think of against what I have said is "exclusivity" but the Klings are allied to the Feds, so there should be some links between them.
For Klingons, however, I like the general idea of it but there shouldn't be any relation to the "warp-in". it can be called "giant debt" or something of the sort (something honourable).The ships should come in a maximum distance to the station (say 1min in a Negh-var) and must not be anywhere very close to any enemy station that you know of. Next I think that you should be able to keep the ships (not control them, just control their autonomy levels. They repair by themselves) for x amount of time. If the ship(s) get destroyed you have to chose a ship to cloak out and give supply, maybe a bit of Di or Tri as well. You should be able to chose your ships (but you can't get a Negh-var when you're in a field yard, it has to be a ship that you can build and can pay for).
Advantages to fed warp-in.
- can chose ships.
- enemy doesn't know how many ships you have or can control
Disadvantages to Warp-in
- maximum distance (only good in small maps)
- ships can't be in sensor range of enemy station (not that much of a surprise attack)
- can't control ships/ may only repair in a base with "ally repair"
- only stays for limited time
- enormous loss fee (if you can't replace within x time you can't use that station again)
- can only chose ships you can build (no equivalent to Galaxy classes in the early-game)
- no ships in desperate situations (can't be used as last ditch effort)
I think that this would actually fit in the Klingon personality (honourable) and their duty to repay old (and new) debts I also believe that there should be a maximum limit to the amount of time you can call in ships (say normal is 7 times Martok(chancellor) is 10 and TaQ'roja(dishonourable) is 5)
for me the two main advantages that Warpins have are
1: Their surprise attacks
2: low cost (destroyed or not)
and in both of these the Klingons don't do it well so? the only excuse I can think of against what I have said is "exclusivity" but the Klings are allied to the Feds, so there should be some links between them.
posted on July 26th, 2011, 8:59 am
Some really good ideas....
posted on July 30th, 2011, 4:13 pm
hmm.
yeah, it was always really intended for klingons... but as romulans can cloak, i left it somewhat open for them too
after looking it over, i still think i prefer it being based off of a ship, rather than the station. as soon as you see that ship coming close, you know you are dealing with potential birds of prey and kvorts uncloaking.
as for choosing the ships that come... not really sure. i was thinking it might be neat getting a large set number of birds of prey, kvort for taqroja.
summary of my last post
based off a new ship, support class. for martok several birds of prey uncloak, no cost. for taq, with a slight cost, get a few birds of prey, and a couple kvort. the ships target engine, and weapons subsystem looking for direct hits. chase down retreating ships to prevent them from getting away. would also prevent them from pursuing you if you retreated. you don't control the ships. they force the enemy to auto target them for a short time. other houses are assisting in these battles. highered mercenary types for taq, and respectable houses looking to aid martok and songs of glory etc. martok commanded birds of prey, would be a great honour for any klingon.
basic outline. the ships are not bound to stay near the ship, but they do uncloak very close to it. stay for maybe 15-30 seconds.
yeah, it was always really intended for klingons... but as romulans can cloak, i left it somewhat open for them too
after looking it over, i still think i prefer it being based off of a ship, rather than the station. as soon as you see that ship coming close, you know you are dealing with potential birds of prey and kvorts uncloaking.
as for choosing the ships that come... not really sure. i was thinking it might be neat getting a large set number of birds of prey, kvort for taqroja.
summary of my last post
based off a new ship, support class. for martok several birds of prey uncloak, no cost. for taq, with a slight cost, get a few birds of prey, and a couple kvort. the ships target engine, and weapons subsystem looking for direct hits. chase down retreating ships to prevent them from getting away. would also prevent them from pursuing you if you retreated. you don't control the ships. they force the enemy to auto target them for a short time. other houses are assisting in these battles. highered mercenary types for taq, and respectable houses looking to aid martok and songs of glory etc. martok commanded birds of prey, would be a great honour for any klingon.
basic outline. the ships are not bound to stay near the ship, but they do uncloak very close to it. stay for maybe 15-30 seconds.
posted on August 1st, 2011, 2:00 am
Last edited by dragonmalice on August 1st, 2011, 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
One of the Babylon 5 mods for stock A2 had a Shadow attack from one of the Centauri bases. There wasn't any movement, but several Shadow crabs would appear at the target location and target everthing in range for several seconds, and then disappear. I don't know what would be required on the texture end, but it wouldn't require any programming changes either.
Of course, since there aren't actually any ships there, the enemy base can't fire back. The attack would have to be short-lived enough for that to make sense.
Another thing I've been experimenting with is using the fighter process to create destroyer escorts for high value ships. If you can stomach watching the destroyers launch from inside the host target, it works pretty well. If there was a way to get the destroyers to cloak until needed, it would be very close to your goal.
I just created an odf for the destroyer giving it basic weapons and no ranks, the fighter process, and reenabled the interface so you can see its status. It won't follow any orders you give it, stays with the mothership, and acts fairly independently in battle. From what I've seen, they do a pretty good job of drawing fire since they're the weakest ship around. They do go outside the radius of the mothership to pound on retreating enemies they've already been engaging, but it's random and beyond your control - and they will turn back before destroying the enemy at a certain point. You can set the time between launches to whatever you want. I'm just guessing here, but since it's just a replaceweapon, you could probably even launch more than one at a time if you want all of them to come at once.
Of course, since there aren't actually any ships there, the enemy base can't fire back. The attack would have to be short-lived enough for that to make sense.
Another thing I've been experimenting with is using the fighter process to create destroyer escorts for high value ships. If you can stomach watching the destroyers launch from inside the host target, it works pretty well. If there was a way to get the destroyers to cloak until needed, it would be very close to your goal.
I just created an odf for the destroyer giving it basic weapons and no ranks, the fighter process, and reenabled the interface so you can see its status. It won't follow any orders you give it, stays with the mothership, and acts fairly independently in battle. From what I've seen, they do a pretty good job of drawing fire since they're the weakest ship around. They do go outside the radius of the mothership to pound on retreating enemies they've already been engaging, but it's random and beyond your control - and they will turn back before destroying the enemy at a certain point. You can set the time between launches to whatever you want. I'm just guessing here, but since it's just a replaceweapon, you could probably even launch more than one at a time if you want all of them to come at once.
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