Klingon or Romulan decloak attack/warpin

[godsvoice]

posted on July 11th, 2011, 11:28 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on July 11th, 2011, 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So I was thinking of an idea for the klingons. Or potentially the Romulans.

Similar to warpin. Could be avatar specific, a special for a ship or new station, etc.

So the basic idea is the Klingons and Romulans always have cloaked ships around guarding their territory to rely on.

A fair sized fleet of say 3-6 ships of varying strength decloak and attack a certain area of space.

This is a temporary acquisition of ships. Ideally, you would select the ability, and give the 3-6 ships a 'starting point' and 'finishing point'. The ships would uncloak at the start point and move towards the finish point targeting and shooting at ships along the way. The ships perhaps get a slight boost in fire power or something. A few things would have to be worked out, min and max distance between start and finish, ie min and max time. So say a 30 second attack. They decloak, have thirty seconds to get between two points, then recloak and you no longer have them.

Perhaps a hefty reload time if it is a station special. Perhaps you get this special once every like 5 min. Or whatever.

Have not thought of possible penalties for loss of ships or anything. Perhaps the new ships also serve to take fire from enemies. So, the uncloaking ships take target priority over other existing ships.

In my mind, this would involve 3-4 ships from field yard or their extensions. 1 ship from battleyard. The last ship would be a random chance between imperial yard (small chance), battleyard, greater chance, or field yard etc greatest chance. Or something like that depending on how many ships we give, and what distribution and all.

These ships can be destroyed but not taken over if they lose shields or whatever. Would have to work out where they can and can not uncloak. Say, anywhere you have cleared fog/shroud. Or has to be near a friendly vessel etc.

Anyways, something along those lines. Thoughts welcomed.

Edit: slight background. so this idea is a way to give some races a way to counter sfc if we make it a similar techtree line base... Also, give cloaking a factions a real ability to use cloak more effectively. I know it might be op for attacking lone mining stations... so that has to be taken into consideration. but again. similar to warpin. larger fleet (i think naturally klingons have more ships, but lesser quality. or if we go roms, just a few. couple medium/small. one large) then they are gone. and it isnt a real boost in fleet size... as they leave in seconds.

the opponent wouldnt know the difference between whether you were using the special or actually had that fleet... unless you got a really big ship to uncloak early on in the game and all. .... so yeh.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 12:23 am

I like it.

I would also love to have the option of ships coming in via a warpin request, but simply decloak on location after a fair delay.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 12:35 am

No. Balance issues aside, the warp-in is unique to the federation.

A warp-in special is also not needed for either klingon or romulan. Romulans with 2 second cloak, Intel center and cloak generator. Klingons have their battle enhancing station.

If anything i would argue for a 2nd special building to counter the disadvantage of the federation

posted on July 12th, 2011, 1:07 am

This is not warp-in.

It can be compared to it, and to make it 'work' in-game, perhaps the ships do get warped in. (To be clear, perhaps this should not have been used at all in the wording, it is just a connection)

But this is just a reflection of the race. Think DS9 when an entire fleet uncloaked on top of DS9. What was it they were going to do? I don't remember that well, they were planning some offensive against cardassia or dominion *perhaps cardassia itself. Anyways, the race cloaks.

Perhaps even let a player begin with a fleet of 3-6 ships with there star base and constructor. A klingon player gets three brel, a kbeajq, kvort, and qawduj that is cloaked right from the beginning. However, he cant use them until say 8-nine minutes into the match.

In every real sense, the federation has more of an effective surprise element provided like a cloak than any cloaking race does. This is a simple fact. At any moment, a fed player can use sfc to have 3 ships 'appear' anywhere on the map. What is the difference between them being warped in, or just uncloaking? Feds have three ships that can appear three times anywhere on the map theyve scouted. Sure, Romulans and Klingons can cloak... but they just can't be everywhere at once like feds. You can be aggressive and guide a cloaking race to keep its fleet in one spot or another.

Battle enhancing station... at the very end of the (impossibly long) techtree? I would almost guess that the comment is more of a joke just implying the Klingons have 'something' to balance. This is nothing substantial in my view. Klingons have nothing of the kind for a huge portion of the game. They have a yard you can build extensions from. That is neat, admittedly. I can send my constructor elsewhere, and if I want more ships, I can construct a yard without hampering the constructor from expanding teching up etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't there been a number of 'warpin balancing' threads? Almost forever that I've been here? Almost a year.

Lastly, aside from pointing that warpin is not what is being addressed here. What is the point of keeping things just to the federation. Give the other races some loving. I've offered differences. The ships all recloak, you dont keep them like the federation.

I think there is more room for discussion than 'no'.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 5:35 am

Every race has a unique ability to its credit. The federations is warp in. Adding warp in esque skills to the other races simply makes the balance game harder than it currently is. Most of the power in the warp in ability comes because you can get it earlier than any other racial special.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 6:02 am

This is not warp-in.

It can be compared to it, and to make it 'work' in-game, perhaps the ships do get warped in. (To be clear, perhaps this should not have been used at all in the wording, it is just a connection)

I think there is more room for discussion than 'no'.

Free ships for Romulans and Klingons through some "warp-in like" addition. It's warp-in Romulan/Klingon style and it would rob the federation of it's unique feature, it would mess up balance since both Romulans and Klingons already have strong special buildings (not even going into their regular vessels and cloak).

I think "no" covers the package sufficient.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 9:02 am

First of all.
Let me be clear. I am not trying to start a flame-war. I'll most likely step on some toes.
I say stuff in a way that it should be clear for everyone and it most definitely will come over as harsh and unfriendly. I'm sorry for that. The written word does that. Try to imagine this text with a friendly, but firm voice. I love this game and I love the community.

Actual ranting
Well, I love the idea. I don't think it's a warp-in like feature at all for the following reasons.

The feature he's suggesting does not let you control the ships at all! You can't tell them to fire on the ships/stations you want, as they fly from a starting point to an end point and then recloak.

So you lose them after say 30 seconds. Really, what can a passing by fleet of 3 b'rels and 1-2 k'vorts do to a mining station. They most likely will only kill one miner if used offensively.
Now consider the warp-in. You get 3 fairly powerful ships for free! Anywhere you want! Which can kill and disrupt the whole mining installation of a moon pair!
So what you're saying as his feature and the warp-in are similar. In this perspective, I don't think so.

Warp-in is free ships (up to 10 ships if you don't lose any!) forever! Plus they can rank up and you can get even more warp-ins! (they use one warp-in slot less?) With his feature you get an instant boost of 3-6 small ships for about 30 seconds and they are gone. In this perspective, not like warp-in either.

His decloak, wreak some havoc and recloak feature gives only 4 small yard ships and 1-2 mid yard ships for a small duration of time. Plus most klingon ships can't fire backwards either. So they decloak, fire off about 2-3 shots, recloak. So it's even less powerful then  your warp-in!
Plus, do you see the federation do the same thing? No off course not! They don't have any cloaking ships! Unless you countt the high-tech cloaking defiant which you can only get by means of mixed tech.

To godsvoice:
Now as for the cloaking ships needing to warp-in. Why? They can just be 'spawned' cloaked at a location. So what is the deal? They're not warping in. They're already there and you decide that they need to decloak from here, going to there while firing your guns as much as possible and then get the hell out!
Not like warp-in at all. Warp-in is visible if you do it right and you can guess where it will 'drop'. And they don't get the hell out. They stay for you to control indefinitely.

If I'm correct, this is what you want/meant, is it not?
I really like this idea of yours. 

To Andre27:
If you can get that MoQbara' station WITH a couple of ships up as soon as a fed's first warp-in, I'd be truly impressed! Really, have you seen a klingon player build a MoQbara' station, ever! No, because that's very, very far up the klingon tech tree. Hence it is very expensive in costs and time! You'd get swamped by warp-ins first. So that's not a very strong argument.

Oh, and "no" never covers the whole package sufficiently. It's just a lame attempt to stomp any counter argument you might get. If it works, great. But if it doesn't work, don't wine about it!

Try to come up with some good reasons why you don't think it will work. Or why it isn't a good idea. Other then wining about Oh, it's like federation warp-in (When it's not) or it's not going to be balanced enough.
Really? And warp-in doesn't mess up balance? Well, the hell it does! They've revised and tweaked the warp-in numerous times and it's still not totally balanced! So what do you do? Try to balance it out some more or do you remove the cool idea/feature all together? Well, unless it really isn't satisfactorily balance able, remove it. If it is and most are fine about, keep it.
Just to be clear. Warp-in is cool and should stay. No doubt about it!
Doesn't mean that other races can't have cool, race-characteristic stuff like a instant, once in a-while,  fly-by ability.

Sorry, but your statement of: Don't give something similar to warp-ins to another race. Is not holding up in my perspective. If you love the federation so much, fine. But others want some cool stuff for the other races as well. The feature he's suggesting is a nice idea and I'd love to see something like that. If at all possible by the game's engine etc.

So please, anyone. No more "no says it all" crap. Never a valid argument. The argument about the MoQbara' station is a valid point. But because it's so far up the tech-tree, not a very good argument.
I know you guys can come up with better counter arguments than these.

So let me recap the counter arguments:
- It's like federation warp-in
Let us consider.
Fed warp-in:
- you get 3 medium classed ships every so minutes to a maximum of 10.
- you get them for free. Unless destroyed, Wreaks havoc on you supplies.
- you get to keep them.
- you can control them.
- they warp-in

Klingon fly-by feature:
- you get 3 or 4 small ships and 1 or 2 medium ships every so minutes. (Yes, about the same)
- you get them for free. unless destroyed, should be some penalty for that. (Yes, about the same)
- they stay for about 30 seconds. So no keeping them. (No, not the same)
- they fly by from one point to one other point, then they get out. (No, not the same)
- you can't control them. They are autonomous. (No, not the same)
- they decloak (No, not the same)

Alright, some points are the same, but the most important points, controlling and keeping them, are different. Hence in my opinion, they are not the same and not similar.

- The klingons have the MoQbara' station
Yes they have. But consider this.
Federation warp-in is early game. Most fed players get it right away.
MoQbara' station is late game. Almost never used. Most klingon players never reach this stage.
So not a very strong argument.

- The word "no" says it all
What kind of an argument is that? Not a very convincing one anyways.
Are you that desperate to keep out this cool idea? In my eyes, you've already lost this argument.

Those are the counter arguments so far.
So only three arguments. Of which two aren't very good.

Last but not least
I apologies for any hard and harsh words. They aren't meant that way. But one can't sit on the fence, stay neutral and participate in a discussion at the same time. A side must be chosen. I choose to like this idea.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 9:30 am

The problem lies in the fact that the warp-in is a unique fed feature (and yes it is a warp-in that's being proposed even if the vessels cannot be controlled, its short term etc.)

To be honest, despite all the complaining about the warp-in being OP in various topics, it is the one thing that keeps the federation standing in the face of klingon, romulan, dominion and borg onslaught.

Any warp-in like addition to either klingon or romulan would destabilize the fragile balance that exists. The cloak by itself gives both romulans and klingons a considerable edge throughout the game.

Add to that making a unique federation feature common to all and the answer can easily be summarized by "no" with the possible exception of "No, for the love of god, please no".

It is a destructive idea and should be trashed from the moment of conception.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 10:17 am

Feds do not need warp-in rush to survive. All that time and resources can be put to other uses, like more fast raiding ships (monsoons). I've seen players kick ass without warp-ins. I don't think warp-in is that overpowered. It's counter-able in my opinion. Even though with some races, it is hard to counter yes.
The feds have tons of other options. Their whole small yard ships counter almost everything.
So, warp-in handy? Yes, definitely. But necessary, no. There are other valid options.

Warp-in like addition for klingons or romulans. Hmmm. I don't see it happening for the romulans. Never seen romulans do that in the series. Klingons? Nope. At least, not in the form of a distress call. Fed warp-in is distress call. Klingons are to honourable for that. They would do surgical strikes. I think this idea is more in the lines of that thought. Klingons don't warp-in. They do surgical strikes.

Cloak may give an edge in the fear factor. But the cloaking races have weak ships and are very costly one way or another. They can't afford losing as many ships as the feds. Cloakers need to be smart and cunning. And that is very hard to pull off.

Now for destabilizing the fragile balance of the game. Every new addition or change has to be carefully and frequently tested. What about the whole borg revamp? The romulans aren't finished yet either. That could ruin the whole balance of the game as well. Every idea has its pro's and con's.

It is not making a unique federation feature common to all. I still believe romulans needs to be finished, tested and balanced. They are getting some cool fancy stuff. No doubt.
So romulans and klingons have cloak. Does that mean all the other races can't have it? Feds have it. Dominion has it to. Though they're hard to get or they're next to useless. Feds have their race specific warp-in. Why not give the klingons a race specific decloak, fly-by, recloak feature? Don't think of it as fed warp-in. Think of it as a small klingon taskforce, ready to strike something on your command and get out. Now they have to ready up for the next surgical strike.

And something summarized as "no" isn't a summary at all. No to what, would be my question.
No to giving another race a warp-in ability. Then I'd say. I agree. But this idea isn't meant to be warp-in. Not as I see it. He might have phrased it poorly. But he didn't mean give something like a warp-in to the klingons and romulans. I think he meant more in the lines of some surgical strike force.

Maybe he should change the thread title to: Klingon or Romulan Surgical Strike Force idea.
But that is totally up to him

Maybe change the idea a little. Maybe make the feature something like this?
Feature to decloak a small taskforce, strike something, then recloak.

So it would decloak 3-6 ships. Try to destroy 1-2 designated targets. Recloak.
So if they do not destroy the target(s) within 15-20 seconds, get out and recloak.
If they do destroy their designated targets, get out and recloak.
Either way. Only fire on designated targets and get out. (Surgical Strike Force)

Cooldown is something along 4 minutes.
Ability to use should cost supplies. (In my opinion.)
Setting up a strike force requires planning and the right equipment

The station built could be upgraded to strengthen the strike force for mid and late game.
The upgrade will be costly off course and the cooldown timer will go up.

posted on July 12th, 2011, 11:23 am

The cloak is a HUGE advantage for the Klingons and Romulans and i dare say, despite counters, that a skilled federation player will lose against a skilled klingon/romulan player if there is no warp-in.

The idea of any sort of warp-in for klingons/Romulans will make them by far the most played (read near OP) sides.

Yes, their ships are fragile but with their cloak hit and run they can keep those fragile ships alive while the federation doesn't have that luxury.

Klingons and Romulans have an edge in raiding enemy mining because of the cloak and so forth.

As "cool" as a klingon/romulan flyby sounds, it will absolutely kill gameplay and that makes it an instant bad idea worthy of something i rarely say in response to an idea "no".

It'll be a gameplay killer, balance wrecker etc. The proper response towards it is and stays "no".

posted on July 12th, 2011, 12:02 pm

you cant just compare the factions in Fleet Operaitons feature wise and say faction A is underpowered or faction B is overpowered. They are too different, at least in my opinion.

I dont think its necessary at the moment to give the Klingons a new superpower. Like all factions, they will get some new unique features in their faction redos, but i don't like giving gameplay-wise similar features like Warp-In to other factions.9

posted on July 12th, 2011, 12:54 pm

This idea reminds me of Electronic Arts Strategy games(like BFME, C&C Generals etc.) where you have a range of powers for every faction. Usually one of them is to call in some additional troops for a short period of time. I don't know if this is balanceable for FO if you give a feature like this to one race only. Additionally: Klingons are in my opinion the best race to counter warp in right now, Borg need more work on this.
What I could think of is something else:
If you get a decent amount of Klingon ships(let's say about 10-15) every now and then an additional free ship will decloak and join your forces(B'rels and KTingas, nothing stronger).
This represents the uncontrolled organisation of the Klingon empire. If a conflict in a sector gets large enough, it will get known throughout the empire, calling in more warriors/houses for the campaign.
A different implementation(more close to godsvoice idea) would be small groups of ships(again Brels, KTinga) that decloak at enemy positions, trying to get a kill or a fast way to Sto'Vo'Kor.
With a higher amount of ships(25+) the strength of the free ships would increase(KVorts, KBQ, Qawduij, Sang).

posted on July 12th, 2011, 4:25 pm

Reminds Me of Sins of A Solar Empire, I believe its the humans that at the end of their tech tree get what you could call a passive ability called "Insurgence" basically random uncontrolled ships pop into planetary orbits of anyones team (even their own) and start shooting things. A relative annoyance since they are not capitol ships in any sense but if your not paying attention you could loose your mining bases... If the idea was implemented like that it would make the game rather random as you could activate the tech and all of a sudden your mining base and the other guys are being attacked by a rogue akira (or vorcha/probe/talon.. yes talon). My two cents. I'm still holding out for the ability to warp out ships 

posted on July 12th, 2011, 4:27 pm

Me too. World in Conflict had it too. You could chose from different abilities: Artillery Strike/Air Interceptors/ Supply Drop in varying degree of strength, paid by a ressource you got from killing enemies.
I like FO as it is, but it ads a bit of metagame, if that could be doable.

posted on July 13th, 2011, 1:47 am

Well again, it isn't warpin... it wasn't even in the title to suggest a connection. It was instead of finding ways to nerf warpin, lets spoof up the other races with some fun.

Thanks Denarius, pretty much summed it up perfectly. Title was probably misleading. It isn't warpin at all. Only thing I would add to what a you said, is you are right about not under your control I didnt really point that out. Only thing you control is start and finish point. Also, affect for targeting. Enemy ships see uncloaking vessels and get rallied up and start targeting at them randomly. So serve as a decoy for your real vessels. The uncloaking ships take target priority.

To make this more appealing to some... instead of no / warpin is for feds / klingons will get other stuff. Play with the idea a bit!

So, it becomes random for the time. Guaranteed 15 sec uncloak, and then the recloak will be random. Perhaps sometime lasting 20 seconds, or up to 30 seconds. The start and finish have to be in a straight line.. obviously. However, once they reach the finish point, they will recloak immediately or within 5 seconds. Would be nice to have slower speeds to set them at.. but no need to bring up old ideas. Anyways, so your best bet is to use them over expansions and home bases. A 15 second - 30 second travel is going to make them move and not hit very much. If you put the start and finish to close together, all you will get is a 15 second attack. If they reach the finish line and its been 15 sec, they recloak and you lose them. Or, make it like an area of effect weapon. Again, we can play with the station or avatar special and how it surfaces. Make it require field yard, battleyard, field research. And can play with the costs. Can be used say every 6=7 min or whatever. Aim for 9-10 minutes in game. Then at 17 min marker for next use. 24 min. 31. etc. nerf their weapons fire? 50-75% of normal damage? maybe other houses ships arent as tough as taq or marts.

While I see a connection between warpin and this.. the feature is completely different. 15 sec flyby decloak, vs 10 ships warped in for distress. In fact, would be opposite. Klingons aren't in distress. Nearby Klingons just want join in on the battle.

I don't see how it is superpowered. Look at recent klingon games. Let's say we make the station cost a few ships, say something in range of 800-1200 di and a reflective tri amount. theyre going to be short three kbeajqs, or kvorts, or brel already that that would have been able to build. The ships they receive are temporary, you get them once every say 7 min, and only for 15-30 seconds. Majority WILL BE brel. at least 3. Maybe a few more, either kbeajq, kvort, sang, qawduj, vorcha, or super super rare neghvar. If you put that firepower for 15 seconds into any video recored klingon game, does that instantly let them win it? How?

Like I pointed out before, Feds already get the 3 permanent warpin anywhere on map, which is significantly more powerful like a real decloaking fleet. This gives the klingons a taste of what should be theirs.

Finally, lets look at how this affects each of the races:

Borg, since a lot of brels and pulse weaponry, probably wont be to much damage done to them.
Romulans: if attacks their ships, their ships can just cloak and wait for the ships to leave.
Dominion: can spam ships quite well, they get a small taste of what its like to be temporarily matched in numbers but can probably fair the short term attack.
Feds: have permanent warpin, and they can use that before any potential decloak. etc
Klingons: can fight fire with fire.

and for all with their ships... oh right! ships can move... and these ships will be the ones who are going in a straight line.. so ... move out of the way? and its a harmless special?

against stations.. really... if its a flyby, i dunno. how much damage will six ships do going in a straight line over the building? one, maybe two volleys worth?

i actually really like this idea. this is not intended in a bad way, but its really hard to get suggestions through with this community. over a long period of time.. i dont think many of personal suggestions get too well received.. not that im expecting much of anythign, its not like every idea NEEDS to be implemented in the game.. thats absurd, but just the way they get went over in the forum. even though generally it seems people like them. either 1, it isn't suitable for multiplayer (ok valid in some cases). or two, the response is no for very short explanation with not a lot of attempt to make the idea work. 3 its to much like another race. races dont have to be similar. ie give klingons another large battleship aside from neghvar. no not all races need super ships. or however the argument wants to be presented.

but i mean, is there a point in trying to give suggestions? it seems like a few like it, a few dont like it, but you dont get very far in a meaningful way. it isnt everyone trying to make the idea work in some way. its just, a few yeses, a few nos. and done. im not on multiplayer... so i can try to give a few fun ideas and see how it goes, (comment on threads here and there), but other than that, not much i can do for the community. im genuinely not really overly complaining... its just if every potential idea is going to come back with not suitable for multiplayer, to  much like another race, or no... whats the point of offering them? i mean really, the game is awesome. no reason not to just wait for the next download, just keeps getting better. so i cant say i have to much to complain about here. and i dont mean to whine if thats how this gets read. it just seems like a lot of the time when I go into the idea threads, its not really... productive? so unless the devs themselves see and like ideas or dont... might as well just leave it at the opening comments. some will like it. some wont.

but one last time... the reason for warpin in the title is not that this is a warpin. its just one way of boosting other races against it along the same time line. similar, to the extent that free ships suddenly appear yes... so what, make taqroja pay a small sum for convincing other houses to join in with her fight. she fights dirty. not free. now its just becaues they suddenly appear?

how is a cloaked flyby *cough temporary* a warpin otherwise? seriously, am i delusional? these ideas are not the same.  i dont want three ships. i want six. heck, lets make it nine! thats different! it still needs a timer otherwise. thats going to be similar. lots lots lots of things in fo have timers. so dont tell me that makes the two races the same all of a sudden.

lol i dunno. as for keeping races separate with the features... completely respectable. keeps them true to their race and makes it a good game. but this is a feature for klingons. cloaked number of small ships attacking in numbers. do you want me to research some youtube clips or episodes? i have referrals. lol maybe if it still reminds you of warpin... instead of saying no, thats a warpin... change the idea so its not!