Klingon defense/ AI overpowered?

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 8:18 pm

Hello dear Community.
I have been playing the klingons very much recently.
I must say i like the concept of big hull strength combined with big firepower.
Also the supply against destroyed enemy vessels is great
Obviously it fits the Klingons very well.
But if you play against Hard or even merciless AI against dominion they dont stand a chance
against dominion spam.
And the klingon defense turrets are too weak, expensive and lack of range to counter bigger cruisers
also the Klingon main stations lack of firepower is a big disatvantage.
and if you play klingon and you are forced into defense against Hard Ai it is almost over (because you are not able to destroy enough enemy ships to maintain supply and the supply costs are very high.

Suggestion; Can there  a second klingon turret be deviced that attacs some subsystems or at least let supplies be created when a turret destroys an enemy ship

The second thing I have noticed is that  enemy AI is able to build ships of both avatars.
Is this intendet? I think it is clearly overpowering the AI.

But dont get me wrong i like the idea of forcing the player to be more aggressive with klingons.

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 8:32 pm

Against AI, you need to expand as klingon. That let's you spam from two fields yards.

Dominion is easy. Beat it before it gets to large yard, be aggressive, absolutely.

But yes... if you let it get to large yard unobstructed, it will be a tough game.

Attacking dominion well it is still at small yard stage is huge advantage to you as the player though.

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 8:40 pm

First of all thanks for the advice (i mean that seriously)
I played on the Nalheri Expansion map for 8 Players and i did i had expandet to 8 moon Clusters.
It still was not enough. The Setting was Me Klingon in alliance with Romulan merciless against 2 Dom merciless.
The Dominion outproduces klingons easily even on the small yard and they interfered with my early build up I had bearly 6 ships at that time.
And one more thing is that klingon ships arent that cheap ether.

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 8:57 pm

Yes. Then it is a matter of the map layout. Is it random placement?

Should make it fixed placement. Put you and the AI on opposite sides. Give yourself some breathing room.

Build 2 constructors from your star base right to boot. Send those out building expansions. If you only have two constructors, you won't build enough fast enough.

Play a game, and just study the AI. Time how long it takes for the AI to send ships after you.

I have played Klingon vs Dominion pretty often, more so federation, but Dominion is next best option afterwards.

Um... Don't tech up either. Wait til you have about 15 ships, then start to go on offensive. Remember to uncloak right on top of them, don't go there all the way uncloaked, engaging the enemy as you go.

The ai will back down a bit if you get in its way and attack their expansions. For a little while at least.

Use kvorts and kbeajq.

Don't build turrets. It costs to much for Klingons with those odds. that is, against two ai mercy. You can in some maps.

See where the AI attacks you, and defend it. Use starbases.

It is tricky.

Can you beat one merciless?

I'm not sure what changes with bringing in an ally like roomies.. i would think it helps... but i dunno. Don't usually use an ally.

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 9:00 pm

Oh, and another thing. Expand right to the centre immediately. Build your yards there. Don't build them at your home base... it takes to long to get them out that way and in the action.

Before you build any other building, you should have maybe at least six refineries going to start bringing in resources. That's two at your main base, and the two directly behind. And the two pairs at the centre. Get all those filled.

For placement, don't give yourself a corner position... because that position sucks.

Give yourself a side, any side. Expand right behind you, and right to the centre. buILD yards at the centre, and starbases.

get two field yards up, with kbeajq and kvort extensions, spam. research their specials too.

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 9:13 pm

I did made a fixed placement me and allie on one side the dom on the upper side of the map.
Yes to have an allie is usefull because without it it is imposssible for the klingons to win.
I have to try that thing with the center of the map thanks
And no I can not win against the merciless Dom spam even against one Dom Ai
By the way i tried that witch other maps witch dont have that many resources and it is the same ratio witch dom spam. Simply no way.
Thats why i opened this Topic

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 9:18 pm

I'll make that my next game setup and see what I can do.

I'm pretty good with Klingon vs AI.

[Falaffelboy]

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 10:12 pm

Last edited by Falaffelboy on November 22nd, 2011, 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thats cool wouldnt expect such a passionate community.

My point was that even if you build a defense line as klingons witch has defense turrets and stations you dont stand a chance against larger forces. Except if you fill that line up with huge amounts of bigger ships say the Vorcha, Veqlaragh, Cho'naQ.
But that sets you in a very defensive position since you have to very much concentrate on defense.

It would be nice if that circumstance could change a little that doesnt mean we have to make the klingons turtlers like Mason

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 11:32 pm

I won the game with Romulan Merci. I also tried just me against 2 merci ... I made a huge blunder so I lost, but even if I hadn't, by the time I was ready to attack in force they had reached large yard. From past I know that's not great. It wasn't terrible, they weren't spamming. I was destroying all their prototypes as they were coming out. But they might have just drawn it out and beat me who knows. I totally forgot that they researched cloak detect. Federation merci never does, but dominion will. So I past through their main base (which had 3-4 star bases, with a cloak fleet of 30-50 or or kvorts and kebeajq. Yeah, they pretty much all died. And I was wrecking the place with those guys. But yeah, since they reached large yard, and base was defended with four star bases... it wouldn't have necessarily been win anyway.

So, Dominion are harder, they defend better with star bases, perimeters. Although the little turret is terrible. But they build lots of em so it adds up. And ship spam obviously.

K so like a clock... fixed placement. Give Rom 9 o'clock, you take 6 o'clock, and give AI 12 and 1/2 o'clock. This way, the Rom AI will expand nicely without getting in your way, and you can expand like I said.

I ended up just keep expanding. Two constructors up top. Two down at the bottom. One's at the bottom take the middle expansion one moon each with refinery. Then send one constructor to the left, and the other to the right. Put up those moons with each constructor. just spam kvort and kbeajq from middle of the map. Build a star base on either side of that asteroid belt up top.

Build two yards to start. Each with kvort and kbeajq extension obviously.

It's winnable. less than an hour or so.

posted on November 22nd, 2011, 11:58 pm

I mean, I get where you are coming from... winning my first merciless game was pretty hard.

I used to build a lot of turrets, but not so much any more.

It is hard to say what is best. But with Rommies as help, 3 star bases and a big fleet will do

posted on November 23rd, 2011, 12:19 am

Yes rommies as allie helps much witch fed allie i promise you, you will loose!

posted on November 23rd, 2011, 1:11 am

I accept the challenge. But I dunno if I'll be able to fit it in today.

The biggest things, absolutely BIGGEST thing in improving your AI merciless game, is understanding what you did wrong, or what you can do different. What was it that caused you to lose?

First thing I learned was to never build brels. That's first thing I can tell you.

Is it that teching up is a problem? Turrets are taking up to much supply? You get lots of resources shortages?

etc etc. Keep trying new things. Might take 3 4 tries before you figure it out. And every map is different.

[Anonymous]

posted on November 23rd, 2011, 5:59 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on November 23rd, 2011, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I would rather choose starting points close together, since you don't need time for breathing, but the AI does. You have to put pressure on it as soon as possible. With KVorts/KBQ you can eat everything that will come out of the Dom small yards - so do it and prevent them from expanding everywhere in the first place. You'll rank up pretty fast, a single Vet KVort can claughter fleets of Dom small ships, while a Vet KBQ won't be killed by anything he puts against you. Furthermore you schould never have a supply problem with Kli against AI - another advantage .
Personally I found Roms and Borg much more challenging than Dominion AI.

Oh, referring to you main post: the Klingon defense station is great . Unlike most turrets in FO it's worth its costs, the more enemies are against it the better it becomes due to its split fire(which doesn't decrease in strength like Mason torps). And due to her missiles many enemies can't just leave. When the AI is triggered to leave three further waves of missiles are already on the way to finish the vessel up. For me the Klingon HWP is only topped in cost/effectiveness ratio by Mason phaser and Dom Perimetre.

posted on November 23rd, 2011, 7:22 pm

Do you mean specifically for this map, or just in general? In general, giving close starting points means the AI sends over some construction ships to build refineries right in your starting expansions, and screws up your resources collection. In this case, it might compete with you for the centre spot. For instance, If I take 6 o'clock, and give the AI 5 o'clock ally, where is it going to expand to when we're that close? might take some of the moons I want, especially if it moves to the centre. Also, it spreads out your view, if you have a wider view of the map, with scouts starting in more areas in general, you'll get a better heads up of what the enemy ai are doing.

The breathing room is to keep the enemy ai on the opposite side. The ally ai away from you is so you can expand. With less expansions, sure you can build a few kvorts and kbeajq, but I dunno, not as many for sure. Maybe you get them a bit sooner, but I don't know if that's a better route to go. Maybe against 1 ai merci it is good though.

But absolutely I'd agree, you have huge advantage both in ships (early klingon ships can destroy early ai dominion ships) and the fact that you rank up so quickly because of their spamming with kvort and kbeajq. I guess it doesn't matter so long as you figure out a way to make that work in your favour.

Finally, if you are just looking for an edge... you can try starting with double resources. Take shroud and fog off. I play klingon against 3 fed AI mercy, and the shroud fog off is really important with that, although I use only normal resources. You can adjust a lot of things.

The problem is in trying to say that there is something out of whack with Klingon balance because you can't beat 2 AI merciless. It's just finding the balancing point. Maybe it should be 1 merciless, and 1 hard ai. You just want to look for a good game where it is a worthwhile fight, and not you owning. Maybe 1 or twice a month, I pick a map and see if it's possible to beat 4 Fed AI merciless... and so far it isn't. But hard for me to say, damn it Klingons aren't balanced! I can't defeat the AI when I make it such high odds against me... Although I wonder now if I could with a Romulan ally. Beat 4 fed merci that is. Other than that, it might just be the tactics of what you are doing. Hard to say.

posted on November 23rd, 2011, 7:34 pm

One can't really figure out balance issues when fighting the AI - at least not issues within one species, only within one species AI. It has been pointed out that the Fed AI seems to be the weakest one, while they are one of the toughest race to beat in online games.

I wasn't referring to the specific map, but if I remember this map correctly it's quite a large one - this could be the problem. That's why I said closer starting points won't let the AI get large numbers of ships since you can fight them right from the start. A smaller map could make things easier.