Kbeaq - ktinga's successor?

[Anonymous]

posted on May 12th, 2009, 10:14 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 12th, 2009, 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I was running through our older posts and found a few interesting posts on the Kbeaq.

I was curious about why the successor to the Ktinga is weaker than the brel?

if memory serves the ktinga was supposed to be stronger than the brel - both in firepower and defense.
The successor of the ktinga however has an offense of 13 while the brel is cheaper and more offense oriented.

I was curious as to whether we may see a boost to the Kbeaq's offense as well as an addition of a torpedo for the MArtok avatar to the kbeaq. of course we can increase the cost, but martok's early game is less forceful the taqroja's from the point of view of Klingon rushes.

IMO, Klings are a race of rush fighters. the bop is ideal for rushing and crippling an opponent.

a well planned rush of BOps can stymie enemy builds and allow the klings to then gear up with vorchas and eventually neghs... bopps then to kvorts to keep the pressure on... with 2 yards instad of 3 will keep the fleet pumping.

Typically as klings this is the intended strat, but in games of politeness you tend to avoid rushes and then come out with wondering about how to manage their mid to late game play when the opponents like romulans are able to tech up better and manage resources better by sheer nature of the tech tree and resource requirements.


Also, a kling rush needs to be precise, and is more difficult against races like the borg and the feds (when they warp in excelsiors and glaxies) as bops alone are pretty weak as far as shields and system attributes... leaving nothing to support them other than overstretchig resources to early spam warped in ships.
Given that constraint, we were hoping the kbeaq would be given a more robust role at least with the martok avatar as an early addition of the fleet that can be more durable than the kvort and still pack a similar punch.

Any ideas on this?

posted on May 13th, 2009, 12:10 am

Interesting ideas.  I've been looking at the Kbeaq recently, trying to use it in my Martok fleet.  Klingons are the hardest race for me, after playing Dominion easy mode for so long.  I wouldn't say the Kbeaq is weaker, just different.  You're right that Brels follow the klingon "rush pew pew oh noes rhienn disruptor refit we just lost half our fleet!"  doctrine, but the successor to the ktinga is more like a Dominion destroyer crossed with a monsoon.  The torpedo drone they get does 60 damage to all ships, not just destroyers (adaptors and generix spectres and a handful of others take reduced damage from torpedoes of course), so they're nice to have around for those big juicy Galaxies that come warping in, or any other ship for that matter. 

Right now, I'm trying to build them along with Sangs, giving me two fleets that can fire while retreating.  The biggest draw for me is that they can actually retreat for repairs and rarely lose their engines since their subsystem durability passive helps them out.  A lot of my brels won't make it our of range before they got shot down.  Another nice thing is the drone torpedoes help them level up quickly, giving them their armor plating passive from officer rank.  I think double gold gives you something like 27 defense on a destroyer!  Those ships will certainly last you a while, if you take care of them. 

Now the punch you are talking about could come from a simple swap.  Giving Martok the heavy disruptor ability that Taq’roja now has would help him in his early game.  I’ve always felt it was redundant for her to have it anyway, since she already has the offensive boost to b’rels, k’vorts, and sangs.

[Anonymous]

posted on May 13th, 2009, 4:18 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 13th, 2009, 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i was hoping the kbeaq had a torp or so. the special weapons need to be researched. Devoting early resources to build a special weapon for the klings or devoting more resources to other sundries like an early tech facility would detract from the concept of the early kling rush and make the rom disruptor analogy u raised to be true.

Plus, when i do have the tech base to research abilities, I am no longer constrained with thebrel. the resources to build a kbeaq compared to its stats + special weapon are better served in the Kvort.

the kvort can then pack a better whallop and is quicker as well. I was focusing more on the kbeaq's role w/o specials and w/o the research facility.

the klingon ships are such that they need numbers to survive against more well balanced romulan rhienns. Hence the need to enforce the rush if u are playing as klingons.

In order to enforce the rush you need to push ur resources to the max. This too can be done. However, to deviate here and put resources towards a research facility will make the klings more susceptible to the romulan disruptor refit.
Why? because if I do divert resources to a research center and the research for the kbeaq, the numbers pumped early will not be sufficient to maintain a fleet in the face of losses since the klings lose bops to a rhienn 2-1. (and u do not have enough dilithium delays the building queue and hence numbers)
The kbeaq is slightly more expensive than the brel, and if i did have a research fac, I would prefer to use my kvorts against rhienn disruptor refits as those are more durable and pack a better punch.

in the end we have relegated the Kbeaq to a support vessel role. This was not what the Ktinga was, and I am curious as to why its successor is as such.

dont get me wrong. I am a fan of mixed fleets as well, but early in game, klings are more stretched due to the poor durability of their ships andthe very very minimal offensive advantage.
It is at this juncture of the game that we see the Kbeaq as being useless with its 13 offense. It cannot be used in high numbers as the brel, and w/o the brel which get nerfed quickly, it cannot stand alone.

the special weapon comes at a point (research station) where we have better alternatives once more relegating the ship to a sundry role.


At this time I have no issues with Taqroja against romulans or even fed warp ins. The added torp to the bop of taq and then the kvorts can easily decimate the romulan disruptor as well as torp refits (at a cost of course). in numbers fed warpins are a fun but winnable challenge (galaxies are a tough nut of course, but have been done).
But martok has a few problems.

hence my post

posted on May 13th, 2009, 7:38 pm

Ha!  Even when I agree with you, you want to argue!  But I guess I see that we disagree somewhat on a few points, as usual.

First, why would you want to give a torpedo to a Martok Kbeaq?  What would be the point of playing Taq'roja if Martok is just as good, if not better in his early game?  He’s a late game avatar, and as such doesn’t focus on his early game, as with pretty much all the late game avatars.

I think you and I both agree that the brel is specifically designed for an early rush.  The ships from the small yard and its extensions certainly go for rushing. The brel, kvort, and either of the avatar ships are useful in their own way for trying to rush the enemy,with an emphasis on offense over defense. Except for the kbeaq.  So where does that leave it?  It’s the all-rounder in the klingon fleet.  The jack of all trades, master of none.  That’s why its offense and defense are the same, and is given a torpedo drone that does the same damage to any kind of ship it encounters.  So if you use it for a specific task like rushing, of course it’s not going to seem as effective. 

And you think it’s useless with only an offense of 13?  How do you think the dominion do it with the same offense?  Attack Destroyers only have a defense of 10, lower than a brel, and they can still deliver, even as Breen.  No, you need the torpedo drone to be effective with the kbeaq.  That may be your problem.  If I was trying to fight the enemy with both my arms and my legs cut off, I’d have trouble, too.  As with the Black Knight in Monty Python, the best that could be done at that point is to bite at someone’s kneecaps. 

Instead of completely relying on conventional weapons like the brel, the kbeaq can instantly kill a miner with 4 or 5 of those torpedoes, while they concentrate on the other miner with their beams.  This is actually faster, and allows them to get in and out before the enemy can respond.  Again, we’re comparing this to Martok brels, who only have an offensive increase of 2 over the kbeaq.

But you mentioned that it’s not cost effective to build the research facility early, because you can’t find the money.  Well, that’s why I’m here to help you!  You’re correct that you don’t really want to produce more than 2 ships at a time.  Any more and you start to run out of money and things get inefficient.  Not to mention you should be concentrating on also building a battle yard and getting your sangs up.  So where do you get your money for that oh so costly (400 dilithium) research station?  Well, you’ve already got it!  Because you saved money by not building any extensions, and producing kbeaqs from your starbase along with your small yard once you’ve got a few miners out!  That’s 300 dilithium, three-fourths of what you need for the station, and you’ve saved 50 supply, to boot!  Awesome!

And who have you been playing that has let your kvorts actually get in range of their rhienns?   Not to mention in a few minutes cloak will be useless for you, along with any sniping you may hope to do. 

[Anonymous]

posted on May 13th, 2009, 8:08 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 13th, 2009, 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ha!  Even when I agree with you, you want to argue!  But I guess I see that we disagree somewhat on a few points, as usual.

I don't think sharing ideas is argumentative. All I did was agree with you, with a few minor changes. But I guess not everyone interprets the written word the same. my apologies if it came off as argumentative.

First, why would you want to give a torpedo to a Martok Kbeaq?  What would be the point of playing Taq'roja if Martok is just as good, if not better in his early game?  He’s a late game avatar, and as such doesn’t focus on his early game, as with pretty much all the late game avatars.

I dont believe giving Martok's Kbeaq would give him the same play as Taqroja - the kbeaq has differnt costs and differnt stats as well as differnt build times. nor does it take anything away from his late game avatar. But one point to note in regards to the martok or kling avatars in gneral, is if you have no starting game, your late game is pretty much lost in front of romulan, fed, and dominion mid-games.
This is the current trend of complaints against the current Klings and hence the set of requests for a closer look - to which Optec has mentioned he would be assigning more specific roles to the particular klingon ships.
It is in that context that this was posted. Perhaps I wrongly assumed we were all aware of the planned implementation.

After all, if the tree itself of a race lets u get to the end game only after a strong early game, an avatar of that race which does not have an early game makes the end game advantage a moot point.

I think you and I both agree that the brel is specifically designed for an early rush.  The ships from the small yard and its extensions certainly go for rushing. The brel, kvort, and either of the avatar ships are useful in their own way for trying to rush the enemy,with an emphasis on offense over defense. Except for the kbeaq.  So where does that leave it?  It’s the all-rounder in the klingon fleet.  The jack of all trades, master of none.  That’s why its offense and defense are the same, and is given a torpedo drone that does the same damage to any kind of ship it encounters.  So if you use it for a specific task like rushing, of course it’s not going to seem as effective. 

And you think it’s useless with only an offense of 13?  How do you think the dominion do it with the same offense?  Attack Destroyers only have a defense of 10, lower than a brel, and they can still deliver, even as Breen.  No, you need the torpedo drone to be effective with the kbeaq.  That may be your problem.  If I was trying to fight the enemy with both my arms and my legs cut off, I’d have trouble, too.  As with the Black Knight in Monty Python, the best that could be done at that point is to bite at someone’s kneecaps. 

Yes, you and I do agree that the Brels and Kvorts are more useful. And I do not dispute your statement that the kbeaq is supposed to be an allrounder.
However, it appears that using the benchmark of the dominion is not a viable comparison. Bug ships are demonstrated as being underpowered and slow to construct with the resource cost as the only advantage, yet unusable as the speed is still pitiful to build those weak ships. Hence again Baron had very good suggestions for a reason.

Also, you did fixate on the torpedo refit. Which i agree with to an extent. However, we must recognize that a rhienn or fed warp in will make mince meat with the kbeaaq and its drones.
2 excelsiors and a neb (foprget the galaxy and the steam).
We should not forget that the klingon facilities and research are not as quick as their ship building.
So here too, even when optimizing our resources, we will fall flat at one point if faced by a rhienn disruptor force or fed warp ins. of course the borg will make mincemeat of them.
this leaves the dominion and we all have agreed that their early game is non-existent but it gets stronger as they develop (which IMO is dominion in nature).
So in the end citing 13 as a fair offense for a ship that costs about 300 or so dil while comparing it to a bug that costs about 177 dil is not a fair analogy. IMO.
especially when the analogy falls apart when i substitute the benchmark with romulan or fed early game ships (yes fed warp in counts).

Again, at this point, if i am to build a research facility and try to get advanced ships, i am better off with the kvort and the susa for martok and the artillery for taqroja. in effect as i said relegating the kbeaq to a nice support ship with a decent support weapon.

This is relevant in games of attrition.

But in games geared to the klingon attack start, the brel do very well, but the kbeaq is not very relevant given its cost and stage (time) of upgrade.

Instead of completely relying on conventional weapons like the brel, the kbeaq can instantly kill a miner with 4 or 5 of those torpedoes, while they concentrate on the other miner with their beams.  This is actually faster, and allows them to get in and out before the enemy can respond.  Again, we’re comparing this to Martok brels, who only have an offensive increase of 2 over the kbeaq.

I am not disputing the ability of the kbeaq. however, once we upgrade it, and of course have enough ships to hit those miners more than once (due to special energy consumption) we are in a stage of the game where the other side has enough mid level ships to take out the kbeaq before it even reaches the miners.
no when comparing them with the brels of martok we still have equally useless vessels early in game, and your analogy indicates with neither actually contributing one over the other to the kling style.

with klingon mid games and late games being more delayed for both avatars than the other races, we end up with martok having the same trappings of taqroja's late game without the early game benefit.

But you mentioned that it’s not cost effective to build the research facility early, because you can’t find the money.  Well, that’s why I’m here to help you!  You’re correct that you don’t really want to produce more than 2 ships at a time.  Any more and you start to run out of money and things get inefficient.  Not to mention you should be concentrating on also building a battle yard and getting your sangs up.  So where do you get your money for that oh so costly (400 dilithium) research station?  Well, you’ve already got it!  Because you saved money by not building any extensions, and producing kbeaqs from your starbase along with your small yard once you’ve got a few miners out!  That’s 300 dilithium, three-fourths of what you need for the station, and you’ve saved 50 supply, to boot!  Awesome!

Nice suggestion. except that was not what i meant. The point about the resources was that while building one brel at a time and 1 kbeaq at a time with the research facility, you will not be able to face a rhienn disruptor onslaught.
If we do not have the additional yards for the additional ships te klings do not stand much against the romulan distruptor refit one on one or the fed warp in or the borg scubes.
it becomes more of a numbers game and a survival game. Which puts stress on the build. I did try the building of Kbeaqs from my Sbase. while keeping the brels limited. It was still an equal strain on my resources.

[Anonymous]

posted on May 13th, 2009, 8:26 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 13th, 2009, 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

**lest i be accused of editing mid-way**

It should also be noted that if I spend my early game building kbeaqs from my sbase i am going to slow down my mining constructions, which will hamper resource collection even more. and if i wait till i have a few miners out (at least enough to have stable mining) then it's too little too late in any case.

Also, the initial context of my question was that the Kbeaq is supposed to be a futuristic ktinga. When the ktingas were more powerful in the mainstream klingon armada than a brel - even up to DS9 - why would their successors be relegated to all-round support and have less offense than the brels.
the relegation of the ktinga to mining as grounds for its minimal offense at this point and removal of its torp is certainly plausible. but not so sure about the kbeaq.

In my specific analogy we have a replacement of an older ship that was already more powerful.
the excelsior was more powerful than the miranda. Just as the ktnga was more powerful than the brel.
At this point, a ktinga 2 being less powerful than the brel is akin to the excelsior 2 being weaker than the miranda. i.e an original class was downgraded in its successor.. 

that was the initial context of this post - lest we get detracted in irrelevant details.

posted on May 13th, 2009, 8:55 pm

I agree, this could be related to the issue of the galaxy almost being better than the Sovereign.  The galaxy was older, bigger, and slower.  But in the game the sovereign, is slower and less powerful even though it is newer and more advanced. 

If it is newer, and made to replace the old one, it should definitively be better.  That is of course if the Kbeaq is supposed to replace the old ship.

posted on May 13th, 2009, 9:04 pm

In game the Galaxy has 30,35 off def, the Sovereign has 36,46 off def . I wouldn't call the Galaxy better obviously. Likewise, the K'beaq is significantly stronger than the K'tinga in game.

The argument here is whether the K'beaq is as strong as it should be, not whether it is stronger than the K'tinga in game.

posted on May 13th, 2009, 9:11 pm

I mean referring to the very long durability issues.  the galaxy lasts quite long in a battle as apposed to the the sovereign. However I could be very wrong, so there is no use fighting about the the federation sense this thread has nothing to do with them.  All I meant by my example was that I agree with Serp. 

posted on May 13th, 2009, 11:09 pm

I don't think sharing ideas is argumentative. All I did was agree with you, with a few minor changes. But I guess not everyone interprets the written word the same. my apologies if it came off as argumentative.

It’s no problem at all, and I wasn’t offended.  I enjoy our arguments.

I dont believe giving Martok's Kbeaq would give him the same play as Taqroja - the kbeaq has differnt costs and differnt stats as well as differnt build times. nor does it take anything away from his late game avatar. But one point to note in regards to the martok or kling avatars in gneral, is if you have no starting game, your late game is pretty much lost in front of romulan, fed, and dominion mid-games.

Well, giving the Kbeaq a torpedo would be doing just that, by trying to “fix” the Kbeaq in exactly the same manner that brels, kvorts, and sangs are with Taq’roja.  And most of the late-game avatars have similar problems to varying degrees.  Rinser certainly doesn’t have a strong early game, Martok doesn’t, The Breen Avatar isn’t horrible, but you’ll notice that you lose the edge in numbers that you would have had from puretech.  Borg Optimize early game isn’t too bad, but it’s not the killer that the Assimilator rush is.  Probably the least affected is the Romulans, as they can still produce the same amount of rhienn disruptors as they could before, with the loss of the small offensive bonus they got and the increased supply cost that will hurt them later.  So I don’t see any of these “current trends” being  Klingon only, as they apply to all late game avatars.

This is the current trend of complaints against the current Klings and hence the set of requests for a closer look - to which Optec has mentioned he would be assigning more specific roles to the particular klingon ships.
It is in that context that this was posted. Perhaps I wrongly assumed we were all aware of the planned implementation.

The old post you mention is one from 6 days ago, entitled “Fewer Ship Types + More Customization”
What “planned implementation” are we to all be aware of?  Here are his words exactly from that post.    “No vessel should be clearly unneeded in Fleet Operations, as each fulfills its role.  As the different roles do not seem to be that obvious for the Klingons, a redo for them is on the todo.”  He also said: 
“ships are quite different in Fleet Operations, most cruisers from different races can not even be compared in their lineup and fleet role, although you sometimes only notice the “true” character of a vessel when playing multiplayer games or forging more detail tactics.  We have absolutely no intention to change that, as that’s the very heart of Fleet Operations.” 
So we have no specific implementation stated, just that they have a clear idea of how the Klingons should play out and that there are people out there who don’t know how to use them.  So in the redo, they will make it obvious to those who aren’t sure how to use them effectively, which I fully support.  If there's another post out there that you were refering to, please link it, so we can all read it.

However, it appears that using the benchmark of the dominion is not a viable comparison. Bug ships are demonstrated as being underpowered and slow to construct with the resource cost as the only advantage, yet unusable as the speed is still pitiful to build those weak ships. Hence again Baron had very good suggestions for a reason.

The bugs are a great comparison.  I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but underpowered?  Slow to construct?  You’ve played Dominion, right?  They have the fastest ship construction in the game!  Played right they can even outmatch Klingon ship production.  You might be able to argue that they’re underpowered, but only slightly.  Not enough to make them worthless.  I’ve read Baron’s suggestion for making small wolf-packs of bugs, making them weaker, but superfast to construct.  I disagree with him, however.  The Dominion are perfectly fine how they are.

Also, you did fixate on the torpedo refit. Which i agree with to an extent. However, we must recognize that a rhienn or fed warp in will make mince meat with the kbeaaq and its drones.

Actually, they’ll make mincemeat of brels.  Say goodbye to that Galaxy or Nebula as your torpedo drones blow the warp in away in one shot, leaving your Kbeaq swarm to focus on the weaker excelsiors and  steamrunners.  Or break your Kbeaqs into 2 groups and take two rhienns out at once.  Pretty fancy stuff!

So in the end citing 13 as a fair offense for a ship that costs about 300 or so dil while comparing it to a bug that costs about 177 dil is not a fair analogy. IMO.

Actually, comparing them to the bug isn’t too bad.  You forgot to mention that bugs cost considerably more in supply.  But how do you get supply, you ask?  Buy spending dilithium!  Over 500 for a supply station, and 750 for your first supply purchase at your starbase.  So a total of about 1800 dilithium to be able to continue purchasing those “cheap” bugs.  If 1800 dilithium is small change in the games you play, let me know because I want to switch to that mod.  What I’m saying is that the economy for both balances out.  You know that Optec and Doca have seen to that.  So again, ships with the same offense and the same ranged beam weapon are completely comparable.

Again, at this point, if i am to build a research facility and try to get advanced ships, i am better off with the kvort and the susa for martok and the artillery for taqroja.

These ships are slower, how are you ever going to realistically catch up to rhienns with cruisers as Martok?

with klingon mid games and late games being more delayed for both avatars than the other races, we end up with martok having the same trappings of taqroja's late game without the early game benefit.

I disagree with this.  The fact that Martok allows you to build shipyards super cheap allows you to build midgame ships much quicker.

Nice suggestion. except that was not what i meant. The point about the resources was that while building one brel at a time and 1 kbeaq at a time with the research facility, you will not be able to face a rhienn disruptor onslaught.

When did I ever say that you should mix brels and kbeaqs?

And where’s your little quip where you say “I have done permutations and calculations before I post things”?  If you don’t want to be accused of editing “mid-way”, then don’t edit midway.  

[Anonymous]

posted on May 13th, 2009, 11:30 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 14th, 2009, 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

well we agree to disagree.

As  said i am not arguing with you. I have said what i wanted to say. Im sure the others will evaluate accordingly.

I dont want to get off topic again and get lost in irrelevant quips.

cheers 


but as regards  ur points, a response is in order - my last response in this thread as i do not want to make a feature request into an irrelevant argument that so far is only based on "opinions":

It’s no problem at all, and I wasn’t offended.  I enjoy our arguments.

As i said, this is not an argument. I do not appreciate having a simple feature request turned into a very childish debate on abstract strategy.
Please do not deliberately try to repeat that this is an argument to give entry to abstract points.

Well, giving the Kbeaq a torpedo would be doing just that, by trying to “fix” the Kbeaq in exactly the same manner that brels, kvorts, and sangs are with Taq’roja.  And most of the late-game avatars have similar problems to varying degrees.  Rinser certainly doesn’t have a strong early game, Martok doesn’t, The Breen Avatar isn’t horrible, but you’ll notice that you lose the edge in numbers that you would have had from puretech.  Borg Optimize early game isn’t too bad, but it’s not the killer that the Assimilator rush is.  Probably the least affected is the Romulans, as they can still produce the same amount of rhienn disruptors as they could before, with the loss of the small offensive bonus they got and the increased supply cost that will hurt them later.  So I don’t see any of these “current trends” being  Klingon only, as they apply to all late game avatars.

Before saying it would "do just that", we need to understand what kind of stats would come intp play. How the resource count would change in building such a ship, and how it would impact the game.
To say it would "do just that" means nothing. The kbeaq would be there to complement the fleet of bops. not kvorts.
a stronger kbeaq with extra armaments would also be in line woith the canon Ktinga. no Ktinga was torpedo less and no kbeaq should be either.
I did not advocate that it be only for martok. I ventured it as an option. I would not mind seeing the Kbeaq having a torpedo for BOTH avatars.


Again do not drift off topic, I am discussing the augmentation of the Kbeaq. it can be augmented for martok or both. Since martok is already handicapped early in game with weaker brels and kvorts, a single ship isnt going to balance things out - after one kbeaq is not equivalent to boosted Brels AND kvorts of Taqroja.
Also, you again seem to be comparing the klings to the breen, risner etc. But you fail to recognize the current Klingon gameplay style which I stated at the outset as my premise - the klings need a strong early game to develop to mid and late game.

If you wish to challenge this premise then please do. But do not tacitly accept this premise in your own statement and then now go back and cite other races that are not so laid out.

Such contradictory information coming out of the same source seems to lead one to  believe that this argumentation is merely an attempt to stymie the thread instead of offering anything constructive.

The old post you mention is one from 6 days ago, entitled “Fewer Ship Types + More Customization”
What “planned implementation” are we to all be aware of?  Here are his words exactly from that post.    “No vessel should be clearly unneeded in Fleet Operations, as each fulfills its role.  As the different roles do not seem to be that obvious for the Klingons, a redo for them is on the todo.”  He also said: 
“ships are quite different in Fleet Operations, most cruisers from different races can not even be compared in their lineup and fleet role, although you sometimes only notice the “true” character of a vessel when playing multiplayer games or forging more detail tactics.  We have absolutely no intention to change that, as that’s the very heart of Fleet Operations.” 
So we have no specific implementation stated, just that they have a clear idea of how the Klingons should play out and that there are people out there who don’t know how to use them.  So in the redo, they will make it obvious to those who aren’t sure how to use them effectively, which I fully support.  If there's another post out there that you were refering to, please link it, so we can all read it.

I remember a post that mentioned the kling ships getting a more role oriented implementation. this may be it or not. I am not in the mood to waste time searching for it.
If we agree on this post, I dont see the relevance of citing it again. What are you trying to demonstrate then?

The bugs are a great comparison.  I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but underpowered?  Slow to construct?  You’ve played Dominion, right?  They have the fastest ship construction in the game!  Played right they can even outmatch Klingon ship production.  You might be able to argue that they’re underpowered, but only slightly.  Not enough to make them worthless.  I’ve read Baron’s suggestion for making small wolf-packs of bugs, making them weaker, but superfast to construct.  I disagree with him, however.  The Dominion are perfectly fine how they are.

There are many of us who have played dominion. We have gone over the various threads on the subject - even those from Baron. You may certainly feel the dominion are fine. Others disagree.
this is a subjective opinion.
Im not going to discuss this aspect further. I have stated why the bug analogy is fairly narrow in my earlier post.
From the array of feature requests in regards to the dominion coming from many other players we see that not many are content with the dominion as is.
the mods too are looking at a dominion redo or at least revamp - so they do agree with the community as well.

regardless of how stable they are IYO, being in flux as they are now, makes the analogy irrelevant.

Actually, they’ll make mincemeat of brels.  Say goodbye to that Galaxy or Nebula as your torpedo drones blow the warp in away in one shot, leaving your Kbeaq swarm to focus on the weaker excelsiors and  steamrunners.  Or break your Kbeaqs into 2 groups and take two rhienns out at once.  Pretty fancy stuff!

Curious. How many Kbeaqs do you believe you will have by the time the feds warp in a fleet with about 3 support sabres? You do realize that fed stations build faster than klings, and typically the fed warp in gets there when you have about 7 brels coming from 3 yards. If you curtail the brels what kind of fleet are yoy looking at - especially since to get kbeqs as u mentioned, you will only have1 yard and researched the drone.
This is not at all realistic - 2 swarms of kbeaqs early in game? by the time the feds warp in?
Certainly fancy stuff - if only it were realistic ingame it would truly be impressive. 

Actually, comparing them to the bug isn’t too bad.  You forgot to mention that bugs cost considerably more in supply.  But how do you get supply, you ask?  Buy spending dilithium!  Over 500 for a supply station, and 750 for your first supply purchase at your starbase.  So a total of about 1800 dilithium to be able to continue purchasing those “cheap” bugs.  If 1800 dilithium is small change in the games you play, let me know because I want to switch to that mod.  What I’m saying is that the economy for both balances out.  You know that Optec and Doca have seen to that.  So again, ships with the same offense and the same ranged beam weapon are completely comparable.

so now you are saying a bug is a vessel that is fine IYO, but is costlier in supply than a vessel with 13 offense. What are you actually trying to demonstrate by this line of comparison.
you end up demonstrating that the bugs are indeed underpowered, and compared to klings do build slowly.
We now seem to be mentioning dominion costs that completely detract from the klingon tree, and an analogy here is completely irrelevant as the supply station supply replrenishment etc are all mid game elements not early game.
this thread speaks of the kbeaq's role early game.

As i mentioned mid game i would prefer vorchas, susas, kvorts.. there is no concrete reason mentioned here for me to go kbeaq mid-game, as mid-game i dont just have galxies i have akiras and plasma coils to bumpthose drones away, as well as carriers and small cruisers to hit back.

I also mentioned tat I agree that the kbeaq does have a support role mid-game, which is again what you are stating.

But I request that we understand that we are referring to early game for the kbeaq ass i most certainly have better options once i have a research facility - making the kbeaq a good minimal role support which is pretty dispensable.

what you;re saying here is more at cross purposes and deviates from the core of this thread.

I disagree with this.  The fact that Martok allows you to build shipyards super cheap allows you to build midgame ships much quicker.

When did I ever say that you should mix brels and kbeaqs?

And where’s your little quip where you say “I have done permutations and calculations before I post things”?  If you don’t want to be accused of editing “mid-way”, then don’t edit midway.  

super cheap? ok. we'll take your word for it. 30% discount is not super cheap. Romulan mining and miners are cheaper than klings and early game that is just as good. now, if we do look at the way the romulan station and refit costs are set, the speed of the feds in building stations, the borg power, we seem to find martok's cheapness early game - a shipyard - a big deal? It does not compensate for the lack of firepower as the mining and research are the same price as Taq. I dont see the importance of the cheapness 


as regards the brels and kbeaqs - again to draw your attention to the core of this thread - klingon early game.... if you;re not mixing brels and kbeaqs what exactly is there early kling game?

Please do not lose yourself in your own points.

As regards my edit - if something is edited, it should let the reader know that it is no longer relevant. Your citation is again irrelevant. But yes, I do take into account permutations and combinations when making apost - it helps to stay focused and not go back and forth from mid to end game to dominion strategy, in a post that is a feature request for a refit class which cites only 2 points

1 - Klingon early game
2 - the Kbeaq - a refit of ktinga, being weaker than a brel and having no torpedo early game.

I would request that we please focus on the theme of the thread, and not vacillate from point to point after having lost focus of the main theme.

thank you.

posted on May 14th, 2009, 3:36 am

I did not advocate that it be only for martok. I ventured it as an option. I would not mind seeing the Kbeaq having a torpedo for BOTH avatars.

But you did.

I was curious as to whether we may see a boost to the Kbeaq's offense as well as an addition of a torpedo for the MArtok avatar to the kbeaq. of course we can increase the cost, but martok's early game is less forceful the taqroja's from the point of view of Klingon rushes.

I’ve been responding to your original post which stated that you would like to see an increase in the Kbeaq for Martok, since his rushing abilities are not as strong as Taq’roja’s.  I had a decent idea about how to easily give the Kbeaq a small, reasonable boost that would be easy to implement.  Ironically, you skipped over this main point to “not argue” with me for whole page now.

Also, you again seem to be comparing the klings to the breen, risner etc. But you fail to recognize the current Klingon gameplay style which I stated at the outset as my premise - the klings need a strong early game to develop to mid and late game.

And the others need a weak early game to develop into a mid and late game?  Everyone needs a strong early game.  That was the point that I was making and you seemed to have missed it.

I remember a post that mentioned the kling ships getting a more role oriented implementation. this may be it or not.

I don’t buy this.  You seemed pretty confident in the spot that this was a response to, and now you can’t remember.  But whatever.  I posted this because you made a sweeping generalization in your post that that this is some kind of current trend that everybody said they wanted you thought we were all aware of the implementation.  To which I asked you “what implementation”?  You would have known this if you had actually read the post.

There are many of us who have played dominion. We have gone over the various threads on the subject - even those from Baron. You may certainly feel the dominion are fine. Others disagree.
this is a subjective opinion.
Im not going to discuss this aspect further. I have stated why the bug analogy is fairly narrow in my earlier post.
From the array of feature requests in regards to the dominion coming from many other players we see that not many are content with the dominion as is.
the mods too are looking at a dominion redo or at least revamp - so they do agree with the community as well.

There's no "revamp"  I can tell you exactly what they plan to do because they clearly listed most of the changes that will happen in 3.6 for the dominion, including fixing a completely broken ability that will make the Dominion incredibly powerful.  And who are all these people who play dominion?  The only one I see playing them regularly online is myself and a few others.  You may certainly feel they are not fine, others disagree.  Considering I’ve often posted on the dominion, and have thoroughly tested them in constant multiplayer games, I’m pretty sure my opinion is better than merely, “subjective”.  I guess this response is to show me that I’m not the only one going “off topic”.

Curious. How many Kbeaqs do you believe you will have by the time the feds warp in a fleet with about 3 support sabres? You do realize that fed stations build faster than klings, and typically the fed warp in gets there when you have about 7 brels coming from 3 yards. If you curtail the brels what kind of fleet are yoy looking at - especially since to get kbeqs as u mentioned, you will only have1 yard and researched the drone.
This is not at all realistic - 2 swarms of kbeaqs early in game? by the time the feds warp in?
Certainly fancy stuff - if only it were realistic ingame it would truly be impressive.

Enough Kbeaqs to do pretty well, provided there aren’t that many norways in that federation fleet.  I guess you really haven’t tested this before posting, so I’ll just have to tell you again that they won’t do too badly.

so now you are saying a bug is a vessel that is fine IYO, but is costlier in supply than a vessel with 13 offense. What are you actually trying to demonstrate by this line of comparison.
you end up demonstrating that the bugs are indeed underpowered, and compared to klings do build slowly.
We now seem to be mentioning dominion costs that completely detract from the klingon tree, and an analogy here is completely irrelevant as the supply station supply replrenishment etc are all mid game elements not early game.

I appreciate that you quoted all I need to respond to this.  Just re-read the part where I mention that this balances out the cost difference between the Kbeaq and the A-20, which is what I was responding to.  But since you were too busy trying to tear through my thread I guess you didn’t read that part.  And you think that supply stations are part of the mid game?   Really?  This demonstrates to me that you don't quite understanding some fundamental elements of gameplay.  No wonder you feel the dominion are difficult to play, and why you might want some kind of buff for the Kbeaq.

I also mentioned tat I agree that the kbeaq does have a support role mid-game, which is again what you are stating.

But I request that we understand that we are referring to early game for the kbeaq ass i most certainly have better options once i have a research facility - making the kbeaq a good minimal role support which is pretty dispensable.

I guess making up arguments for me is easier to responding to the ones I actually made.  Please show me where I said that the Kbeaq was for the mid game.  By the way, if you don't make the research facility, how do you research cloak detect?

As regards my edit - if something is edited, it should let the reader know that it is no longer relevant. Your citation is again irrelevant. But yes, I do take into account permutations and combinations when making apost - it helps to stay focused and not go back and forth from mid to end game to dominion strategy, in a post that is a feature request for a refit class which cites only 2 points

You must put a lot of irrelevant stuff in your posts, because every post has been changed and altered multiple times to fit your current argument.  You accuse me of stymieing the thread, but how does it look to a new reader if the continuity of your own thread is altered just to make you look good and everyone else look bad?  How does that help them?  I’ve said this again.  My main point in my original post was that the Kbeaq should get the Heavy Disruptor ability for Martok.  You skipped right over it and have continued to “not argue” with me over a lot of pointless stuff.  So in keeping with your request, what do people think of that idea?  Would that make the Kbeaq more useful to people playing Klingons with Martok as their avatar?  I would still like to hear a response to this.

posted on May 14th, 2009, 4:22 am

there are actually some plans to change the K'beajQ (note the "j" ) in 3.0.7, along with a few other changes to the "early Klingon days" - the Field Yard units. Its about making the K'beajQ a small Vorcha with better stats, a hybrid between Field Yard and Battle Yard units.

But i want to watch the new 3.0.6 balancing "live" a bit closer before starting the 3.0.7 redos. Your feedback is always welcome!

posted on May 14th, 2009, 4:47 pm

cool. thanks  Optec.
appreciate your response.

that resolves this thread. 

posted on May 21st, 2009, 9:25 am

It seems in 3.0.6 you have to pay more for a K'BejaQ than a k'vort while it has lower stats... so why do i want to build it???