industrial yard increase

posted on October 26th, 2011, 3:59 am

Been a while since I gave any suggestions here. Recently had this idea, thought I'd see if anyone had any thoughts.

In exchange for a specific amount of di/tri/supply per a certain amount of time, you can decrease the time it takes to build a ship at a given yard. It would be selected at individual yards (the ability). For example, you click this button, and it decreases build-time by 30% in exchange for 10 di, 4 tri, per 2 seconds and 1 supply per 3 seconds.

Example: Akira 557 di, 168 tri 16 supply, 89 seconds. By selecting this option at the yard, you would decrease the time to build from 89 seconds, to ~63~ seconds.  So, 89 - 63 = 26 divided by 2 = 13. During this time, you would pay an additional 130 di, 52 tri, and 4 supply. Roughly. Bringing the total for that Akira to 687 di, 220 tri, 20 supply. Obviously these numbers can be fudged, but a rough example. This option can be selected either at the beginning of a build cycle, or during build time to simply finish quicker. Lasts until cancelled, i.e. this option can be used indefinitely for multiple queue orders. The option only works for the yard selected, but all yards can be set up with this.

In game reasons for why you would do this:

You are being raided near a yard/mining station by two early game destroyers. In yard, your ship has 40 seconds left to finish building, by selecting this, it would be out in 28 seconds. You have been teching up, and this ship would be able to fend off the weaker destroyers once built.

You can afford it. You have amassed a large amount of di, tri, and supply (good job ) and are currently building from multiple yards, but still don't seem be able to get ships out fast enough to match your collected resources. So, spend a little more to get your ships out faster. Perhaps you just won a decisive battle, but took heavy losses. You want to build an additional fleet quickly while you have the economic upper hand (as you just destroyed your enemy's expansion) so this is a valid option.

You are desperate for your first battleship to get on the board.

Why this would be feasible in general:

Crew works overtime, who knows, but as di, tri, and supply represent the resources you spend during a mission in battle, it simply suggests that you are expending larger amounts of resources to get what you want. It sort of reminds me of the DS9 episode, although I can't remember the specifics, but Nog wanted to get something for Jake? or O'Brien maybe, and so he does a whole bunch of negotiating with resources between various crew members to acquire what he wants.

What can actually influence shipyard build time in real world scenarios? Calling in favours, what have you, not sure the best things to put in, but obviously, you can always speed up production for a greater cost. Perhaps you spend the resources are getting an extra piece of equipment to increase your ability to put the parts together... etc...

I see this mostly as option for the races other than borg. Borg are just efficient. But who knows. Maybe something optimize avatar can do... they are always looking for ways to optimize. Federation can call in engineers, Klingons get incentive for glorious battles, Dominion get new orders from founders to increase production, Romulans have various covert methods to get things done as needed in a hurry.

Yep. Possibly something that you research first... that way no way to make certain options OP too soon in the game.

posted on October 26th, 2011, 4:47 am

I like it, but could be a game changer. this would make the borg a little...tough. and maybe the doms with their spammy style.

posted on October 26th, 2011, 4:53 am

I really like this idea, but not for everyone.  It should be an ability that only one race can do, I'm thinking the Dominion but possibly the feds as these races are more production focused.  Perhaps a station at the top of the tech tree with a special ability that speeds up yards in exchange for supply.  I don't think it should be available in the early game, it would become necessary for people to use it all the time unless it costs more resources than it's worth.

posted on October 26th, 2011, 10:56 am

Yes, I mentioned how the borg might be left out... simply because optimize is the only way I could see them figuring this out. In general, they have to regenerate etc, and putting in overtime isn't exactly a play in their rulebook.

As for early game, I don't mind it needing to be researched first at the first research station for most (although, personally, I don't think research for this makes any sense... you have to research how manage crew and overtime?). However, it could be something you 'research' first at your yard, something like a three day tutorial for all staff bla bla bla.

But I figured this would be somewhat balanced for early game, because it's already pretty tight, between setting up economy, building research stations, first expansion, and yards... you can't build a whole bunch of ships for extra extra money without it hampering you in some way.

But in any case, I'm open to suggestions. If it isn't balanced for early game, mid - late game implementation is fine by me.

Oh... and the math has to be edited. I think it's clear I calculated it based on time subtracted, but you would still take 62 seconds to build the akira for example, as opposed to 89 seconds, but the extra 130 di, 52 try, and 4 supply would have to be split over the 62 second span, i.e., not necessarily 10 di per 2 second. It would be something like, over the entirety of the new 63 second build time, you would spend like 2 di per sec, 1 tri per second, and 1 supply per 15 seconds etc. But it would be based on what you are subtracting from the build time I guess was how I was thinking about it,

posted on October 26th, 2011, 12:54 pm

i think a yard thing like this belongs with dominion.

small yard is already the spam yard, so maybe large yard could get something like this. where you can research a way to get faster build times.

posted on October 26th, 2011, 8:38 pm

Yes, in my mind, Federation and Dominion seem most right for this idea. Feds have engineers, and with a little adjustment to the duty roster, I'm sure they could pull it off. Obviously, Dominion are huge for ship production. So I agree with Tryptic/Myles in this case as well.

The two races who really shouldn't get this, if any, are Romulan and Borg. Don't see them pulling this off all that well really.

Klingon I could go either way. They do spam ships just like Dominion, one yard splits into three... so I can see the reasoning for it.

The other logical extension of this thought, is to put something like increased supplies to your research team. Currently, the cost for research and star bases are strictly di and try, I believe? Given a certain amount of supply, given the research, you could decrease research time... but in my opinion this would CERTAINLY be unbalanced. Considering research is done early on, Feds for example could spend supply which they are already plentiful in to get chassis levels faster... so, yeah, it could be something to consider, but I wouldn't really want it.

Also, while I mention this for the yards, it is also something to consider for starbases but in a distinct way.

Yards are ship production, i.e. combat ships. Starbases would alter how you might build your economy and build with construction ships. So, if you could increase the cost of miners, and get them out more quickly... that could be really different race depending. And that would definitely be an early game advantage for some. Considering Taq who already has cheaper miners, hers would be more or less even with Martoks then, but a lot faster. But if we were to go for mid late game thing, could be easier for getting an extra expansion far off or something.

posted on October 26th, 2011, 10:20 pm

I don't see this working as well for the Romulans since they don't usually use spam tactics and they're more of a 'build lower numbers of better ships' type. Yeah, this could be incredibly useful for both Dominion and Federation, given their higher chance for spam tendencies. I'm not sure about the Klingons having this though; in order to use this for them, Klingon players would have to be pretty good at micro, organizing and sending out their ships right when they're built in order to get a steady stream of supply going. As it is now, they have enough time between builds to destroy a few ships here and there and keep up their resources. If it was decreased, it could still be pulled off, but itd be risky.

All in all though, great idea

[godsvoice]

posted on October 27th, 2011, 12:00 am

Last edited by godsvoice on October 27th, 2011, 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, actually I never thought of that trekkie, good point. This would make it more expensive for Klingons and their supply problems. Actually, the main reason I was looking for it was during times of resource surpluses... but this might not always be feasible. And yes, Klingons might not be able to afford it so easily.

So for them, it more be if they could get it in for just one supply. That is, once a ship is already underway, and being built, during the last seconds they speed it up to finish it.

There should also be a mandatory start cost. That is, as soon as you select the option, you pay a small amount up front. So, for 1 supply, you could get 15 seconds or so of speedier production, then cancel, before it costs you too much.

But absolutely, good for feds and dominion. And yes... lol I put it as Romulan 'covert' options in my original post lol BS ing a little bit there, but I agree completely, Romulans are all about quality, rather than quantity. I just didn't want to favour one race to much, and keep it open. But yeah, and besides, Romulan ships are already way more expensive than most of the others, making a warbird go from 1000 base cost in di, to say upwards of 1200 or 1300 is pretty demanding. And again, if this is given to federation and dominion, I guess we just have to price it right so they don't get too much of an advantage over the others.

I figure that like everything, if devs like it, they would just tweak the numbers until the right balance for cost in di tri and supply was reached.

Edit: So I was thinking it over rather haphazardly, but if you are spending say 2-3 supply to get a ship out 15-20 seconds earlier, you have more ships out there to get you supply. Imagine spending 12 supply extra, and getting three additional ships out on the field 20 seconds sooner (from multiple yards, as long as you can afford the di/tri) as a random example. Three additional ships where you are saving maybe a minute roughly between them, would easily get you that supply when you get them out... maybe, yes?

I'm not sure who's right, it costing to much supply, or getting the ships out sooner, and being that much more able to gain extra supply, so ultimately, it just might require testing. But I see ups and downs.

posted on October 27th, 2011, 11:42 am

One last thought is that we could apply this in a few different ways to avatars in the federation or dominion race.

1. The ability is given exclusively to the building of avatar specific ships. Risner can build her avalon or phalanx at cost, for a speedier build time. Nova and Norway for Mayson. Likewise for Dominion.

2. The ability is given more broadly to an entire yard like Myles was saying for Dominion large yard, or just say 60% of ships from all yards. So, a couple destroyers, cruisers, supports, and battleships. However, certain ships get bonus treatment. For instance, the Akira under Risner is maybe a staple of her fleet so she can produce it for 75% of the cost, 7.5 di, 3 tri, and 2 supply.

3. A new Avatar somewhere gets this special. Does Dominion have plans for their fourth Avatar yet? Anyways, perhaps one of the newer Avatars, for Federation possibly as well, gets a way to do this.

posted on October 27th, 2011, 4:41 pm

First: I admit I didn't read all your text walls godsvoice - I think it's an intersting topic though

How about giving it to Dominion for ships and to Feds for buildings? The costs would have to be pretty high though, something like 1supply per saved second(or 1dil/1tri for buildings). If one was able to rush you with that ability he should have a supply wall like the Borg or KTinga rushing Klingons. Meaning if you can survive the user of the ability will be in a pretty bad situation.
However, I do see the problem that this can hardly happen to Feds bacuase of their warp in. The Warp in will never put you in a situation where you can't build ships anymore.

[godsvoice]

posted on October 27th, 2011, 5:01 pm

Last edited by godsvoice on October 27th, 2011, 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Interesting, I like that. Thought about the research part, but not about the actual buildings themselves.

True, warping to give the feds a bonus already for ships. So then we are talking about perhaps building starbases faster, but say 2400 di instead of 2000... or whatever it works out to.

Interesting. But yes, I agree especially for Dominion who already get cheap ships built, it would just switch it to slightly more expensive ships build faster. So a balance has to be reached where yes, the user is doing this with some risk to himself IF he's abusing it. I.e. rushing or what not. But obviously, its just a clear winning advantage if you have a resource surplus and can afford to do it. Which might put pressure on others to harass Dominion often, or else...

At the moment, there are no buildings with supply cost is there? So we would sort of be introducing supply cost to buildings, in exchange for a quicker build time. But this could be just as devastating. Could get the opportunity for a faster warpin... but if it is capped in some way by cost... should be balanced.

posted on October 28th, 2011, 2:05 am

Yeah, balancing is my primary concern with this, but if we can figure out a good way to do so it would add another layer of depth to the game

posted on October 30th, 2011, 6:44 pm

This doesnt make much sense, what is the point of the extra resources? extra tritanium would mean a larger hull, a larger hull means more build time! Basically, this should be more of a supply thing.

posted on October 30th, 2011, 9:56 pm

@ Godsvoice - I actually think this is a really cool idea, but something befitting the Dominion specifically and probably on a lower scale to avoid game-destroying balance issues

posted on October 31st, 2011, 1:46 am

@ boggz thanks   to scale it down a bit in one of those posts i suggested to give it to only selected ships of an avatar. or a selected shipyard etc. and costs are open to interpretation. i think myles suggested making it a large yard thing. so that wouldn't be able to affect early game balance. also research possibility... but i would prefer a yard based research component, rather than relying on an actual research station. and even then not so much. (its just spending more to get something faster.. you don't need research in my mind for that)but yeah, and again, I would favour selected ships from both small yard and large yards. ... obviously at a higher cost that balances.

@ alexbond. i understand what you mean. supply is one of the more loosely defined resources. but just in general, i was referring to the fact that in FO you have resources as follows: di, tri, and supply. So you spend extra of these within whatever capacity to reach your goal more quickly. dilithium is just energy, i think? or whatever. so your spending more of it to fuel the ships you are using. tritanium doesn't mean the ship has larger hull necessarily. maybe you use it to build extra machinery to do extra work loads in some part of the building process (i don't know) but in general, you spend more, to get something faster. that was the idea.

I'm happy the idea is being well received, but I just hope the Federation get a small glimmer of it, even if it is more of a Dominion mainstream thing. Simply because of the engineering side of the Feds. The idea came to me when I was playing as feds and I was trying to spam from eraudi yard. I realized I needed to keep building more eraudi yards, cause during the time it would take to build one defiant, and one sovereign, from two yards, I was raking up so much more resources then i was spending. So I kept building yards and it just got out of hand, because then eventually I killed the resource balance input/output.

Perhaps if this does go the way of Dominion only, Federation can tap into it somehow with mixed tech. Although, I'm about as clueless as can be with what is in store for future mixed tech stuff... but maybe this can get in there somewhere if the devs like it. If you are feds, with Dominion allies, your mixed tech vessels have the ability to get this speedier build etc. Or maybe even one or two of your main vessels. Like nova for Mayson, and Akira for Risner.