Ideas for the D-Rhienn :)
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 7:21 pm
So the recent competitive tournament has encouraged me to take a closer look into WHY certain vessels tend to dominate 1 v 1 play as opposed to others that dominate team games. The stuff I started to see in regards to critical mass and cloaking advantages led me to actually write up some little strategy threads for the Klingons and Romulans. This also gave me ample opportunity to compare reasons why certain units are much more flexible than others and can end up doing the job of even other specialist units BETTER than they can.
The Disruptor Rhienn is the one I'd like to discuss right now
.
Ultimately I hope to encourage the Devs from this post to make some adjustments to the Disruptor Rhienn that slap it with a drawback that I feel it currently lacks.
The areas in which I feel the D-Rhienn could use a drawback: (I'll explain why in the following text) The traits in bold are the ones that I feel make the most difference and should be adjusted to bring them in line with other ships.
1. Place in the tech tree (teching to them does not sacrifice ship production)
2. Vessel Speed (120)
3. Kaleh Manuever + Multi Disruptor (45 extra damage every 120 seconds + Multi)
4. Defensive traits (High Defense, small size)
1. Higher-Tier Tech
The Disruptor Rhienn is a higher-tech ship, but the Rhienn is the beginning ship. This means that, unlike other quick-tech strategies, there is no period of vulnerability where quick action by your opponent can prevent the tech up. Rhienns are fielded and are likely to have phase plates so there is no slowdown in production until the Refits actually begin to be upgraded themselves, by which time it's generally too late.
What I recommend:
The tech-placement is just fine. The stats are on par with medium cruisers like Akira's and T-15's. The extra abilities and the fact that teching straight to them has no real drawback is what creates part of the issue. It's tech-spot is fine, but reaching them requires no drawback in the form of lower ship production or fewer expansion/offensive opportunities. The fact that the strategy of going straight to D-Rhienn should be remembered as we look at other reasons.
2. Vessel Speed (120)
Speed of 120 makes the D-Rhienn just 10-20 speed less than most interceptors. This + long range + 360 beam / multi and the ability to strike from cloak means that really you are never going to be actually caught by the ships designed to intercept you. A few ships can catch you, but we'll take a look at why those few exceptions are somewhat nullified shortly.
What I recommend:
Along with a few other small changes, the vessel speed should be reduced to 100. That makes it just 10 slower than an Akira but still faster than battleships like Warbirds, the Sovereign, or even the Excel 2 (80). The speed allows it to kite and allows also: (120 speed + high defense + 2 second cloak = few early game losses = stackability = critical mass).
3. Kaleh Maneuver + Multi Disruptor
Kaleh Maneuver is direct free damage that is focused on a single ship when battle begins. This makes the D-Rhienn more effective against small numbers of powerful ships. Multi-disruptor spreads lots of damage across many targets, making the D-Rhienn more effective against large numbers of small vessels.
What I recommend:
The removal of one of these abilities. My vote is for Kaleh to become an officer ability. The Romulans do not have other decent methods for handling massive hordes of small ships so the Multi-Disruptor is a good way of getting damage across small vessels, but to be effective against lots of weak and few numbers of strong is not balanced. It makes the Disruptor Rhienn too attractive and renders irrelevant other vessels that fulfill the same functions when stacking D-Rhienns does the same thing as well as other functions BETTER.
The Norexan has Multipurpose Weapons that fulfill this role of dealing lots of damage directly onto a single target. It's not needed on the D-Rhien as well and I recommend that it become an officer ability.
4. Defensive Traits (Small Size + High Defense)
[align=center]The ideal vessel specs to counter the D-Rhienn WOULD be: Large sized, pulse-based, medium Cruisers able to be fielded in equal numbers to the D-Rhienn (as in not LOTS of weak ships and not a FEW strong ships).[/align]
Here's one of the big kickers that I don't think people really consider. Ok so the D-Rhienn is small sized (choose pulses to counter) and has pulses itself (medium/large sized to counter). So you need a medium/large size vessel armed with beams or pulse weapons to effectively counter it. Those exist in the Norexan, the Defiant, and the Phalanx. Not exactly easy ships to field in numbers and certainly not ships you're likely to get when the D-Rhienns are making their weight felt.
The Dominion units designed to counter the D-Rhienn (B'rel and S-2) do not fulfill this role effectively enough to really be used as such. I take that back ... The S-2 can do so well enough because it's stats are on par with a single D-Rhienn as well and is fielded in MUCH higher numbers for much less of a cost. Those factors make up for the fact that they take full pulse damage and miss with torpedoes. B'rel are wiped out by multi-disruptor and take full damage from pulses. B'rels are also slower to build than Rhienns and, if you want to field them in numbers capable of handling D-Rhienns you need multiple yards that require extensive invesetment and time. Just not a practical counter in most cases. Monsoons counter D-Rhienns quite effectively and Norexans / Frigates do as well. Borg ships are strong enough to handle D-Rhienns well due to large size and beam based weapons.
What I recommend:
Mal had brought up the idea of having Kaleh Manuever have a drawback: to increase the rate of torpedo impacts by 20% OR to have Tactical Weapons Arrays do a 100% increased damage instead of 50% to D-Rhienns. I am personally in favor of making torpedoes hit D-Rhienns 80% of the time like a medium sized vessel because this means that, if the D-Rhienn is going to have so many all-around good attributes, then more vessels all around will put up acceptable fights with them. Sangs would suddenly go from being one of the worst things you can field against them to pairing nicely with B'rels in taking them out. Feds ships that aren't Monsoons would also be better equipped to handle them.
So this is what I think. The D-Rhienn just has too many beneficial traits that come with no drawback. In 1 v 1 play it's a bit different as direct pressure can result in low numbers of them, but truthfully they still perform very well. In team games the D-Rhienn shines and usually cleans the game as massing them is very easy, team donations can make up for being harassed, and they perform so well across the board against nearly anything.
I would personally like to see:
The Disruptor Rhienn is the one I'd like to discuss right now
.Ultimately I hope to encourage the Devs from this post to make some adjustments to the Disruptor Rhienn that slap it with a drawback that I feel it currently lacks.
The areas in which I feel the D-Rhienn could use a drawback: (I'll explain why in the following text) The traits in bold are the ones that I feel make the most difference and should be adjusted to bring them in line with other ships.
1. Place in the tech tree (teching to them does not sacrifice ship production)
2. Vessel Speed (120)
3. Kaleh Manuever + Multi Disruptor (45 extra damage every 120 seconds + Multi)
4. Defensive traits (High Defense, small size)
1. Higher-Tier Tech
The Disruptor Rhienn is a higher-tech ship, but the Rhienn is the beginning ship. This means that, unlike other quick-tech strategies, there is no period of vulnerability where quick action by your opponent can prevent the tech up. Rhienns are fielded and are likely to have phase plates so there is no slowdown in production until the Refits actually begin to be upgraded themselves, by which time it's generally too late.
What I recommend:
The tech-placement is just fine. The stats are on par with medium cruisers like Akira's and T-15's. The extra abilities and the fact that teching straight to them has no real drawback is what creates part of the issue. It's tech-spot is fine, but reaching them requires no drawback in the form of lower ship production or fewer expansion/offensive opportunities. The fact that the strategy of going straight to D-Rhienn should be remembered as we look at other reasons.
2. Vessel Speed (120)
Speed of 120 makes the D-Rhienn just 10-20 speed less than most interceptors. This + long range + 360 beam / multi and the ability to strike from cloak means that really you are never going to be actually caught by the ships designed to intercept you. A few ships can catch you, but we'll take a look at why those few exceptions are somewhat nullified shortly.
What I recommend:
Along with a few other small changes, the vessel speed should be reduced to 100. That makes it just 10 slower than an Akira but still faster than battleships like Warbirds, the Sovereign, or even the Excel 2 (80). The speed allows it to kite and allows also: (120 speed + high defense + 2 second cloak = few early game losses = stackability = critical mass).
3. Kaleh Maneuver + Multi Disruptor
Kaleh Maneuver is direct free damage that is focused on a single ship when battle begins. This makes the D-Rhienn more effective against small numbers of powerful ships. Multi-disruptor spreads lots of damage across many targets, making the D-Rhienn more effective against large numbers of small vessels.
What I recommend:
The removal of one of these abilities. My vote is for Kaleh to become an officer ability. The Romulans do not have other decent methods for handling massive hordes of small ships so the Multi-Disruptor is a good way of getting damage across small vessels, but to be effective against lots of weak and few numbers of strong is not balanced. It makes the Disruptor Rhienn too attractive and renders irrelevant other vessels that fulfill the same functions when stacking D-Rhienns does the same thing as well as other functions BETTER.
The Norexan has Multipurpose Weapons that fulfill this role of dealing lots of damage directly onto a single target. It's not needed on the D-Rhien as well and I recommend that it become an officer ability.
4. Defensive Traits (Small Size + High Defense)
[align=center]The ideal vessel specs to counter the D-Rhienn WOULD be: Large sized, pulse-based, medium Cruisers able to be fielded in equal numbers to the D-Rhienn (as in not LOTS of weak ships and not a FEW strong ships).[/align]
Here's one of the big kickers that I don't think people really consider. Ok so the D-Rhienn is small sized (choose pulses to counter) and has pulses itself (medium/large sized to counter). So you need a medium/large size vessel armed with beams or pulse weapons to effectively counter it. Those exist in the Norexan, the Defiant, and the Phalanx. Not exactly easy ships to field in numbers and certainly not ships you're likely to get when the D-Rhienns are making their weight felt.
The Dominion units designed to counter the D-Rhienn (B'rel and S-2) do not fulfill this role effectively enough to really be used as such. I take that back ... The S-2 can do so well enough because it's stats are on par with a single D-Rhienn as well and is fielded in MUCH higher numbers for much less of a cost. Those factors make up for the fact that they take full pulse damage and miss with torpedoes. B'rel are wiped out by multi-disruptor and take full damage from pulses. B'rels are also slower to build than Rhienns and, if you want to field them in numbers capable of handling D-Rhienns you need multiple yards that require extensive invesetment and time. Just not a practical counter in most cases. Monsoons counter D-Rhienns quite effectively and Norexans / Frigates do as well. Borg ships are strong enough to handle D-Rhienns well due to large size and beam based weapons.
What I recommend:
Mal had brought up the idea of having Kaleh Manuever have a drawback: to increase the rate of torpedo impacts by 20% OR to have Tactical Weapons Arrays do a 100% increased damage instead of 50% to D-Rhienns. I am personally in favor of making torpedoes hit D-Rhienns 80% of the time like a medium sized vessel because this means that, if the D-Rhienn is going to have so many all-around good attributes, then more vessels all around will put up acceptable fights with them. Sangs would suddenly go from being one of the worst things you can field against them to pairing nicely with B'rels in taking them out. Feds ships that aren't Monsoons would also be better equipped to handle them.
So this is what I think. The D-Rhienn just has too many beneficial traits that come with no drawback. In 1 v 1 play it's a bit different as direct pressure can result in low numbers of them, but truthfully they still perform very well. In team games the D-Rhienn shines and usually cleans the game as massing them is very easy, team donations can make up for being harassed, and they perform so well across the board against nearly anything.
I would personally like to see:
- Speed reduced to 100
- Kaleh become and officer ability
- Either 80% torpedo hit rate OR 100% total increased effectiveness from TWA
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 7:33 pm
Boggz wrote: The Dominion units designed to counter the D-Rhienn (B'rel and S-2)
when did the dominion steal the brel. now the klinks have even less decloak.
i think the roms already have enough ships that are easy to hit with torps (birds never dodge)
so i think kaleh manoeuvre should be an officer ability.
id start with a 10 speed reduction and see if that is good enough.
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 7:49 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 7:53 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 7:57 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 8:01 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 8:17 pm
im not sure what that means .....but if you suggest that they change other ships to make them more effective ....would it not be simpler to adjust the D-Rhien. alter one ship rather then manyThings that would just make more units perform decently instead
?? not sure what your trying to say ....you make sense most of the time so i must be at fault here 
lol.posted on January 23rd, 2011, 8:28 pm
Exactly: adjusting the Disruptor Rhienn in order to make more units perform better against it 
. Turning the D-Rhienn's torpedo avoidance down to just 20% would do that, for example.
. Turning the D-Rhienn's torpedo avoidance down to just 20% would do that, for example.
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 8:31 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 8:38 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 9:54 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 10:38 pm
posted on January 23rd, 2011, 11:45 pm
Last edited by Tryptic on January 23rd, 2011, 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on January 24th, 2011, 12:01 am
Good post, Boggz. 
You kind of mentioned everything I would have said, so I'll just add that there are only a few vessels like this that are just a little too good. In this case, it's easy to tech up to them, especially on larger maps. But as Boggz was saying: Unlike other quick tech up strategies, this one doesn't really slow down production at all, since you're able to spit out a T1 unit from the start. I know that I'm simply hoping the redo will already have these fixes in place.
Just remember that we only complain because the game is really, really good.
You kind of mentioned everything I would have said, so I'll just add that there are only a few vessels like this that are just a little too good. In this case, it's easy to tech up to them, especially on larger maps. But as Boggz was saying: Unlike other quick tech up strategies, this one doesn't really slow down production at all, since you're able to spit out a T1 unit from the start. I know that I'm simply hoping the redo will already have these fixes in place.
Just remember that we only complain because the game is really, really good.
posted on January 24th, 2011, 10:41 am
Yep, we are currently working on redoing some of the Romulan baseline units, including the Rhienn Refits
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