Bortas nerf
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posted on August 3rd, 2011, 11:54 am
Styer Crisis wrote:And i'm going to have to say:
"if the other team is daring enough to try it and get it then they deserve it"
i mean c'mon, in 3v3s you scout for things like this, and if you see it at the last moment you prepare for it, attack before they get it up, destory their mining, basiclaly, if a player does a bortas rush in a 3v3, hes taking himself out of the game, aside from those 3 ships. so then you go attack him constantly, he can't use the cloud special near hiis own mining, so its vulreable there, take some short range counters with you and wipe him off the map.
Just this.
In the last 50 3v3+ games i've seen the Bortas ONCE. Yes, really, only one time - maybe i missed a second, still not a lot.
Only nerf i could think about would be a slower cloak and speed after activation, or maybe just remove the advanced cloak (should stay a romulan thing).
Otherwise scout more, split your fleets, interact better with your team mates, etc... so many ways to counter this. Definitely no need for a harsh nerf, since it's far away from being overpowered.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 12:29 pm
So just because you haven't seen it often does mean its not OP? Maybe ppl like to stick to Vorchas or Sangs instead of getting the Doomsday device. I have seen it in several games and always a skilled player used it to crush fleets in no time. Maybe my team was always bad...but maybe if you add together all the facts I gave one can conclude that there is something wrong with the Bortas in 3v3+ games.
Btw. you should read carfully what I write...I am not referring to a Bortas rush (as you said) which indeed will take out one player for quite some time. I refer to a tech up that is neither costly nor difficult. And why should a Klingon not be able to use the Nebula near his own exp? If he can whipe out the enemy fleet this way it is absolutly valid to do so.
And no, its not just about the advanced cloak or just about the speed...sorry to say this, but if you can't imagine any other nerf you clearly have a problem with imagination and creativity...
None of this is an argument at all...show me a case where a skilled player with Bortas gets countered that way...I guess you can't. The adv. cloak makes it impossible to be detected without significant effort (and a Rom ally).
Finding the yard is fine, but you need the opportunity to take it out. Consider 2+ additional opponents in 3v3+ and a Vorcha/Sang fleet and 2 yards (Imperial and small or big at main base) and you'll recognize its costly or pointless to go there.
You seem to talk about things you neither experienced nor could conclude from the facts I gave.
Btw. you should read carfully what I write...I am not referring to a Bortas rush (as you said) which indeed will take out one player for quite some time. I refer to a tech up that is neither costly nor difficult. And why should a Klingon not be able to use the Nebula near his own exp? If he can whipe out the enemy fleet this way it is absolutly valid to do so.
And no, its not just about the advanced cloak or just about the speed...sorry to say this, but if you can't imagine any other nerf you clearly have a problem with imagination and creativity...
Otherwise scout more, split your fleets, interact better with your team mates, etc... so many ways to counter this
None of this is an argument at all...show me a case where a skilled player with Bortas gets countered that way...I guess you can't. The adv. cloak makes it impossible to be detected without significant effort (and a Rom ally).
Finding the yard is fine, but you need the opportunity to take it out. Consider 2+ additional opponents in 3v3+ and a Vorcha/Sang fleet and 2 yards (Imperial and small or big at main base) and you'll recognize its costly or pointless to go there.
You seem to talk about things you neither experienced nor could conclude from the facts I gave.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 4:11 pm
Drrr, stop calling everybody who brings arguments against you inexperienced >:(. If you start a discussion, you should also consider what other people bring up against it.
You say people use the same strats all over again. Fine, BortaS is a very unusual and rarely used one, now you call it OP.
BortaS is a late game vessel, you should be able to have cloak detection up at that point. Furthermore, if you aren't able to fight a 3v2(since the Klingon player will be in an inferior position due to the high investment, like a turtling Fed player), something went wrong in the game already. Additionally BortaS alone don't help much, even with MoQbara station medium sized ships are able to move away easily, you need a fleet to get them at that point. If you don't have it, BortaS isn't that useful.
You say people use the same strats all over again. Fine, BortaS is a very unusual and rarely used one, now you call it OP.
BortaS is a late game vessel, you should be able to have cloak detection up at that point. Furthermore, if you aren't able to fight a 3v2(since the Klingon player will be in an inferior position due to the high investment, like a turtling Fed player), something went wrong in the game already. Additionally BortaS alone don't help much, even with MoQbara station medium sized ships are able to move away easily, you need a fleet to get them at that point. If you don't have it, BortaS isn't that useful.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 5:56 pm
I think the idea of lowering bortas speed is the perfect solution, if it needs a nerf. It isn't that people can't imagine another nerf, a speed nerf would be much better than the changes you have suggested. >:(
The thing that separates the BortaS from the HSA is that it's easier to deliver. Removing the cloak would make it impossible to use against something like Rhienn spam, which the BortaS SHOULD counter. Making it a normal cloak instead of advanced would also help, but between the different races there's plenty of green pings to go around. If you assume a 3v3 game where the Klingon player's allies have been helping him get BortaS up, then the 3 players of the other team should be distributing talon refits, fed scouts or EM adaptors.
A speed nerf, normal cloak or perhaps an extra 2-second delay between decloaking and ion storming would make the BortaS strategy require more skill in its execution.
OR a cost increase for the ship itself would make it more costly to set up, but as Drrrrr pointed out this only counts if the enemy is able to kill the BortaS before they retreat.
But reducing the damage, removing the cloak, or limiting the number of storms would all cripple the strategy in cases where it is SUPPOSED to work. The closest thing I can see that would work would be a supply cost on the storm.
The thing that separates the BortaS from the HSA is that it's easier to deliver. Removing the cloak would make it impossible to use against something like Rhienn spam, which the BortaS SHOULD counter. Making it a normal cloak instead of advanced would also help, but between the different races there's plenty of green pings to go around. If you assume a 3v3 game where the Klingon player's allies have been helping him get BortaS up, then the 3 players of the other team should be distributing talon refits, fed scouts or EM adaptors.
A speed nerf, normal cloak or perhaps an extra 2-second delay between decloaking and ion storming would make the BortaS strategy require more skill in its execution.
OR a cost increase for the ship itself would make it more costly to set up, but as Drrrrr pointed out this only counts if the enemy is able to kill the BortaS before they retreat.
But reducing the damage, removing the cloak, or limiting the number of storms would all cripple the strategy in cases where it is SUPPOSED to work. The closest thing I can see that would work would be a supply cost on the storm.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 6:04 pm
Drrr, stop calling everybody who brings arguments against you inexperienced
At least you have proven that you are not reading carefully what I have written!
I am NOT speaking about a Bortas rush so the Klingon is not out of game and therefore it is not a 2v3!
Bortas is not commonly used since it requires further tech up from Sang or Vorcha strats. And since these ships are good allrounders ppl dont consider teching most of the time.
Once the Klingon reaches Bortas there isn't much you can do against them...cloak detect is almost useless since its adv cloak and chasing is difficult since your fleet might bother with pathing or lack fast ships with proper range.
where it is SUPPOSED to work
Can you tell me where it is written that the Bortas is meant to destroy fleets of ships? In my opinion it has the same purpose as HSA that is buildings and mining destruction. Killing whole fleets, taking out players with one attack is not funny nor fair and likely not intended. So again we end up with you not being able to see other purposes for a ship like this. Sad but true and reflects the overall adaption of superior strategies...
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 6:50 pm
Last edited by Tryptic on August 3rd, 2011, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Drrrrrr wrote:Can you tell me where it is written that the Bortas is meant to destroy fleets of ships? In my opinion it has the same purpose as HSA that is buildings and mining destruction. Killing whole fleets, taking out players with one attack is not funny nor fair and likely not intended. So again we end up with you not being able to see other purposes for a ship like this. Sad but true and reflects the overall adaption of superior strategies...
I already gave an example: the BortaS is meant to work against rhienn spam. It's supposed to be effective against large number of small ships. It currently is very effective because players build mostly small ships. So yes, it IS meant to destroy fleets of ships! The very concept of AOE weaponry has been to destroy groups of units since the beginning of RTS gaming.
I can see the "other purposes" by which you mean base destruction? If the ability was actually strong enough to destroy structures on its own, that would be a bit more OP than you say it is now. And it would be ineffective to use against structures in combination with friendly ships because the range would have to be huge to hit more than one building and thus could hit your ships as well. The BortaS is simply designed to work against large fleets, and should not be changed to do anything else.
Even the HSA's primary use is to damage big fleets, the latest changes didn't alter that. They just gave it a secondary usefulness in breaking fed turret walls and sieging bases while the primary use got nerfed a bit. The goal is still to tech up and decimate enemy fleets so that the enemy is encouraged to try something other than a large fleet of small ships.
A small number of big ships, for example borg diamonds, takes hardly any damage from the nebulas and could be used to screen for the rest of the fleet. Something should be able to beat BortaS easily, but a fleet of small ships should not.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 9:03 pm
Even the HSA's primary use is to damage big fleets, the latest changes didn't alter that. They just gave it a secondary usefulness in breaking fed turret walls and sieging bases while the primary use got nerfed a bit. The goal is still to tech up and decimate enemy fleets so that the enemy is encouraged to try something other than a large fleet of small ships.
Sorry, but with this and some other sentences you just disqualified yourself from any discussion with me. You lack the most elemental concepts of argumentation and evidence. I won't waste my time with people like you anymore, there are much more competent people to discuss important things with.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 9:20 pm
Discussion ragequit, haven't seen that often...
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 9:24 pm
Even the HSA's primary use is to damage big fleets, the latest changes didn't alter that. They just gave it a secondary usefulness in breaking fed turret walls and sieging bases while the primary use got nerfed a bit. The goal is still to tech up and decimate enemy fleets so that the enemy is encouraged to try something other than a large fleet of small ships.
What are you talking about?
The HSA does reduced damage to ships and increased damage to stations/turrents its primary use is for softening defenses not fleets.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 9:41 pm
Drrrrr,
Speaking a single word that you disagree with "disqualifies people from any discussion with you." As a result, you are a poor negotiator and have managed to alienate anybody who may have otherwise agreed with your analysis. There is nobody left on this website who would speak up on your behalf. You need to either change your behavior or else you will soon be considered nothing more than a troll by this community.
And a troll is what you are, you offer no constructive ideas and you make sure that any good that MIGHT have come from an idea of yours is suffocated by the torrent of abusive language you spew at anybody and everybody who tries to speak up. I don't need to know anything else about your life to see that you have never been in charge of a project in any sort of business or organization, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have never discussed any "important things" with anyone because society doesn't trust important things to people as communication impaired as yourself.
The structures in Fleet Ops are too widely spaced to make AOE base attacks effective, which is why people do not use the HSA for that role. The damage bonus makes them effective against turrets and mining expansions but not the main base because if you have pushed the enemy back to their starbase you have already won the game. Thus the HSA remains mostly an anti-fleet weapon.
Or maybe it's because expansions tend to be in front of the main base, to screen it. In fact I'm already in the process of making a few maps where the mains are more accessible to each other, then we can see if it actually gets used against main bases.
Tell me clearly and plainly what is incorrect about my line of thinking, and prove yourself to be logical. Otherwise your ad hominem attacks stop here and now, because if you can hold a stream of logic in that self-deluded brain of yours, you haven't shown any evidence of it so far.
Speaking a single word that you disagree with "disqualifies people from any discussion with you." As a result, you are a poor negotiator and have managed to alienate anybody who may have otherwise agreed with your analysis. There is nobody left on this website who would speak up on your behalf. You need to either change your behavior or else you will soon be considered nothing more than a troll by this community.
And a troll is what you are, you offer no constructive ideas and you make sure that any good that MIGHT have come from an idea of yours is suffocated by the torrent of abusive language you spew at anybody and everybody who tries to speak up. I don't need to know anything else about your life to see that you have never been in charge of a project in any sort of business or organization, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have never discussed any "important things" with anyone because society doesn't trust important things to people as communication impaired as yourself.
The structures in Fleet Ops are too widely spaced to make AOE base attacks effective, which is why people do not use the HSA for that role. The damage bonus makes them effective against turrets and mining expansions but not the main base because if you have pushed the enemy back to their starbase you have already won the game. Thus the HSA remains mostly an anti-fleet weapon.
Or maybe it's because expansions tend to be in front of the main base, to screen it. In fact I'm already in the process of making a few maps where the mains are more accessible to each other, then we can see if it actually gets used against main bases.
Tell me clearly and plainly what is incorrect about my line of thinking, and prove yourself to be logical. Otherwise your ad hominem attacks stop here and now, because if you can hold a stream of logic in that self-deluded brain of yours, you haven't shown any evidence of it so far.
posted on August 3rd, 2011, 10:00 pm
whoa its getting a little hot in here, maybe you guys should both calm down a little. @drr, you started this thread, i dont think you want it to die so soon.
posted on August 4th, 2011, 12:11 am
Well i agree that the Bortas is a strong vessel, but it is supposed to be as a late game tech ship.
The Bortas requires a lot of resources and is balanced for 1-1 gameplay.
What you propose is to nerf a vessel because it is easier to get in 3-3 games. However if you nerf 1 vessel for 3-3, you need to adjust values for every vessel in the whole game.
Overall: do not fix what is not broken. The Bortas is balanced and to adjust it for an exceptional situation sounds like a bad idea.
The Bortas requires a lot of resources and is balanced for 1-1 gameplay.
What you propose is to nerf a vessel because it is easier to get in 3-3 games. However if you nerf 1 vessel for 3-3, you need to adjust values for every vessel in the whole game.
Overall: do not fix what is not broken. The Bortas is balanced and to adjust it for an exceptional situation sounds like a bad idea.
posted on August 4th, 2011, 6:16 am
What you propose is to nerf a vessel because it is easier to get in 3-3 games. However if you nerf 1 vessel for 3-3, you need to adjust values for every vessel in the whole game.
Black and white thinking...its simply not true what you say.
Overall: do not fix what is not broken. The Bortas is balanced and to adjust it for an exceptional situation sounds like a bad idea.
You said it is balanced for 1v1 - and I always agreed to this and I also gave evidence that it does not require much resources when teched up from a Vorcha strategy.
But all what you said that does not mean the Bortas is fine in 3v3+ as well it just indicates that you have no arguments left at all (like many others).
@Myles
Be true, you just want to get a nice show...however, have you ever tried to convice a Teaparty member that Obama is not a Musilm? No matter what arguments you give they won't believe you...because their arguments are so much better (2nd name is Hussein and he is black)...nothing to add or rethink on their side. Well the situation with some ppl in this community is the same as you could clearly see here. No matter how valid or discussable your arguments are...they just come and talk and believe obvious trash. In this year I had to talk far to often to these people and I realized that I am too weak to heal them from their illness...therefore I skip this discussion...all my arguments are layed down and maybe the devs can use them.
posted on August 4th, 2011, 11:41 am
Drrrrrr wrote:@Myles
Be true, you just want to get a nice show.
if by nice you mean people talking without personal attacks then yes.
watching people flame can be fun sometimes, thats what youtube comments are for.
posted on August 4th, 2011, 7:44 pm
Drrrrrr wrote:Black and white thinking...its simply not true what you say.
Prove me wrong. We both know that balance between units is like walking the rope. Changes to 1 units affect all others.
You said it is balanced for 1v1 - and I always agreed to this and I also gave evidence that it does not require much resources when teched up from a Vorcha strategy.
But all what you said that does not mean the Bortas is fine in 3v3+ as well it just indicates that you have no arguments left at all (like many others).
That doesn't change the fact that it takes a bundle of resources to get a bortas and its specials. The Bortas deserves to pack a punch. And even if the Bortas is easier available in a 3-3 match with vorcha strategy, this changes little.
Bottom line is that the Bortas is a rare sighting and a glass cannon. It packs a punch all right, but is very fragile at the moment of decloak. I think the bortas is fine as it is at the moment.
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