Bortas nerf

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 7:05 pm

At the moment Bortas are fine in 1v1 and 2v2 and constant battling. However, in 3v3+ games they are a major pain and very close if not OP. They are fairly easy to reach especially if the enemy switches from Vorchas (which are the baseling for that strat) to Bortas. Research of specials is no problem and once the first 3 are out you will likely lose most of small ship fleets to them (especially hurting Dom and Rom). They have advanced cloak and can recloak shortly after they deployed that nebula and are fast enough to save some more time to recloak not speaking about its durability...so no chasing and no early detection. What I would like to see is a nerf so it is less annoying and powerful in 3v3+ games.
Some ideas:

1. Make it either cloak or get the nebula special that way Bortas can be detected earlier

2. Disable its cloak after using the nebula special for x minutes so you can see where it goes

3. Make the Nebula an once per ship special to award well timed nebula but no n-th chance hitting

4. Nebula does highly reduced damage to ships and normal to buildings even though this does not prevent nebula spamming

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 7:36 pm

How about decrease dmg but allow it to dmg and disable subsystems like nanites?

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 7:37 pm

because it would be nanites then right?

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 7:39 pm

Doesn't every race have a version of the Grav-tac ping? That should pierce Adv. Cloaking.

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 7:44 pm

The Bortas already has been tweaked (new order of special abilities), and I don't see why it should be nerfed if the major problem only appears in bigger teamgames where the normal rules of balance don't apply that much.

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 7:57 pm

So 3v3+ games that are favoured by many don't deserve that a game killer ship gets nerfed? Why? Any argument?

[Tyler]

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 8:02 pm

Last edited by Tyler on August 2nd, 2011, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think the normal view is "Whoever allows the enemy to get it deserves what they get". It's no worse than the Cube or Dreadnought.

posted on August 2nd, 2011, 11:57 pm

So 3v3+ games that are favoured by many don't deserve that a game killer ship gets nerfed? Why? Any argument?

You won't hear from me that the Bortas is not a dangerous unit, but it is a dangerous unit which takes a lot of time/resources. It is also an unit which is balanced form 1-1 battles.

If we are going to include 2-2 and 3-3 balance.. where do we stop. I may argue that the Saber is OP in 3-3 matches. Bottom line is that there's chosen to balance units on a 1-1 basis (and for good reason).

posted on August 3rd, 2011, 3:06 am

I'm starting to think the Bortas isn't the problem, it's just that players aren't used to using the other lategame AOE abilities.

Dominion have HSA and dreadnoughts
Borg have nanites and cubes that do well against large fleets.
Feds have...magnan array?  Sensor blackout and point defense are powerful force multipliers so I think that makes up for the lack of a full AOE damage weapon.  Although, if you gave the Teutoburg's area torpedoes a bigger area and made them multi-targeting, that could be pretty cool.
Klingons have BortaS, the easiest AOE to use in my opinion.

Romulans have Serkas, and I want to try using them in a big fleet battle sometime.  I think they could be very effective in groups of 3 or more, but people just aren't used to using them.  We also have sensor jammer and radiation array as helev, but Mijurial is seriously lacking AOE weaponry.  Still, the singularity Gen has an area heal which could possibly serve to negate enemy AOE damage.

Sorry, off topic there.  But do you see what I'm saying?  I don't think the BortaS is overpowered as much as players just haven't been learning and using the other races' big fleet weapons.  It's been a couple months since I last played a 3v3 game that reached 20+ ship fleets for each player.

posted on August 3rd, 2011, 3:16 am

And i'm going to have to say:

        "if the other team is daring enough to try it and get it then they deserve it"

i mean c'mon, in 3v3s you scout for things like this, and if you see it at the last moment you prepare for it, attack before they get it up, destory their mining, basiclaly, if a player does a bortas rush in a 3v3, hes taking himself out of the game, aside from those 3 ships. so then you go attack him constantly, he can't use the cloud special near hiis own mining, so its vulreable there, take some short range counters with you and wipe him off the map.

posted on August 3rd, 2011, 8:00 am

Lol, the "cost" argument is no argument in 3v3+ at all. You dont give up anything if you tech up to Bortas AND maintain a fleet of Vorchas. Regarding scouting Bortas early is fine, but with the right allies on the opponent team (average ppl are good enough) you wont get ANY chance to prevent building Bortas. And once they are there all the arguments I gave in the first post count. Once there, they are almost not counterable unless the Klingon makes a huge mistake. And even if you lose one you can easily replace it.

Btw. I am really wondering what you would lose if the Bortas gets a slight nerf in terms of their use...can you explain what you fears? So I get a better understanding why people like to ruin others games by using these things (btw. its even worse than the HSA and that one was nerfed) instead of bringing it back in line with cost/use of other strategies.

Just for the numbers (teching from Vorcha):


3! Bortas:
Dilithium 984
Tritanium 1125
Supply 54
Time 4,25min (in games that can easily last 1h)

Buildings + research:
D 2237
T 2124

In sum (in a 3v3+ game):
D 3221
T 3249
S 54

To get back the cost you invested in terms of enemy ships destroyed - Dil costs equal to:
10 S2 (not counting the increased supply cost)
8 Intrepids or 11 Monsoons
7 Kvorts or 6 Sangs or 7 Chargs
9 Rhienns (normal) or 5 Griffins (rounded down) or 5 Leavhals (rounded down) or 6 Generix (normal)

Especially for Romulans the numbers are reachable with even one attack! Not counting the numerous ships that can be sniped by the rest of the fleet during retreat and also not counting that a player typically must retreat his whole fleet to a yard unless he wants to lose all (damaged) ships.
Nothing prevents a Klingon player from trying it multiple times since the chances that Bortas will cloak out are fairly high and NO not all races get a mobile or semi-mobile ping to detect them!
If Bortas hit you near your yard you cant use instant repair (r) because of pathing stuff and they buildings (yard) will get severely damaged as well ideal for a strong opening battle.

In conclusion, the Bortas (once handled by a not newbie Klingon player) has so many advantages and so few disadvantages (if any) that I absolutly think it deserves a fix. Even if that means that some of the lame ppl that like to crush opponents, no matter what strat they use, get pissed off.

posted on August 3rd, 2011, 8:15 am

it doesn't even need a major nerf, all it really needs is a speed decrease as they move bloody fast and cloak before you stand a chance of killing them... and there cloak could do with taking long to recharge, it such a powerful ship with such a powerful weapon it should take more energy to cloak so longer to recharge...

posted on August 3rd, 2011, 8:21 am

I would like to see the either or between Cloak (at all) and Nebula. Then you can still use the nebula as you want but you cant be sneaky anymore and must calculate that you'll lose ships more often. With cloak on the other hand you can jump into enemy exps and deploy some attack probes and jump out. 2 nice strats for 1 ship.

posted on August 3rd, 2011, 8:27 am

Well, I agree with the costs. It's very strange that it's one of the cheapest Klingon ships. Everything else is fine. It has a speed of 90 - slowest Klingon ship. It usually will be killed after its first use, since you use it inside fleets which one shot it right away. It needs ages and puts that player out of the game. I know this has been said before but it is very true. If the player also builds up a fleet (and therefore needs even longer) the enemy players do something very wrong or should get their own HSA/Tavara/Nanites on the way. And if the Klingon doesn't build a fleet it is a 2v3.
Without cloak the ship will be totally useless. You can't hide it in a fleet since you snipe your fleet with it then. And it is one of the slowest ships in game with short ranged weaponry. Everybody would laugh at it when it tries to run on your fleet to set its nebula .
Btw. Drrr which buildings did you take into consideration when saying it was 2237dil?

posted on August 3rd, 2011, 11:34 am

I am referring to a Klingon player that jumps from a Vorcha strat to Bortas in 3v3+ games. So the Klingon fields a strong fleet indeed not beeing out of the game. And from Vorchas to Bortas its the cost I listed in my post (1 yard + 1 science building + science).

It has a speed of 90 - slowest Klingon ship

True but it still its durable that you have trouble taking it out...especially if you must outmicro of the nebula first (you might have 5 secs until your small ship fleet is gone).

It usually will be killed after its first use

Then you should play vs good Klingons that save the Bortas almost every time leveling them easily. Its not that you can snipe them easily with your fleet inside the nebula.

I know this has been said before but it is very true.

Doesn't make it right or true though. btw. HSA does not eat up ships anymore neither does a Tavara.

Without cloak the ship will be totally useless. You can't hide it in a fleet since you snipe your fleet with it then. And it is one of the slowest ships in game with short ranged weaponry. Everybody would laugh at it when it tries to run on your fleet to set its nebula

You are so corrupted by the easy going strats like Fedroll, Vorchas and such that you can't even imagine other uses for ships then sending them right inside battle. How about this, you could use the Bortas to prevent ships from escaping or reparing...the Nebula is not considered when you hit the repair button so ships will fly through it if you place it well. That way Klingons can force fleets to move into certain directions. And with the low cost of a Bortas it is not a problem if one or another Bortas is lost due to no cloak.