A new Suggestion for the Dominion

posted on September 10th, 2010, 7:47 pm

Still i like the fact that section 31 was elaborated on considerably during DS9. It emphasizes that when presented with a conflict any society can descend into practices that are typically frowned upon. Even the Federation with all of their laws and regulations.

[Tyler]

posted on September 10th, 2010, 7:52 pm

Last edited by Tyler on September 10th, 2010, 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sure it works . The Feds win because of the "eeeveeel methods" (which are quoted over and over to be just like everybody else in the Federation) and are able to get everything that was wanted done, done. The ultimate children's fantasy.

Not really what S31 was going for, though, they intended to get peace through genocide. The Federation just exploited them for their own ends. Section 31 failed what they planned, the Feds hijacked it.

Section 31 is about as 'Federation' as Duras is Klingon.

posted on September 10th, 2010, 8:02 pm

Interesting how Duras nearly ascended to the thrown then, right? Ol' shifty eyed Gowron wasn't so admirable himself, and the High Council sure was ready to walk in lockstep with Duras should he have won his right.

The Feds got just what they wanted - convenient little end to the whole S31 and Dominion mess.

Still i like the fact that section 31 was elaborated on considerably during DS9. It emphasizes that when presented with a conflict any society can descend into practices that are typically frowned upon. Even the Federation with all of their laws and regulations.

That's because DS9 invented S31 - TNG didn't need some "cloak and dagger" society with a convenient wrap up to show that there were problems and veins of corruption with the Federation (which would likewise always be there)

posted on September 10th, 2010, 10:18 pm

TNG was too optimistic to have something like S31 in it. Considering the bitching people did about S31 in the darker DS9, imagine what would happen to them in TNG...

posted on September 10th, 2010, 10:23 pm

Only optimistic if you look cursorily. Next time you watch it, look and see what "respect" is given to civilians, or ... well... a large number of things  . The Federation isn't so sweet in TNG as it has been commonly viewed. Consider that Picard was seemingly the only one espousing its virtues, while the rest of the admiral's and captains were quite content to do more questionable things to protect/promote their interests.

posted on September 10th, 2010, 10:27 pm

Well, I never said flawlessly optimistic. Just too optimistic for S31.

posted on September 10th, 2010, 11:26 pm

s31 diddn't poison the link because they're good at their jobs.  Jeeze, people, they did it because they got LUCKY.

If the following, beyond their control, had not happened, they would never have pulled that off.

#1 - Odo comes nominally under federation authority, rather than going with the cardassians.
#2 - Odo allows starfleet medical to get a sample of him.
#3 - Odo links with the collective.

Without those events, they would have accomplished NOTHING in that regard.

They're just opportunistic, ammoral, honorless jerkoffs who like to pretend they're good guys.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 8:50 pm

Odo was already with Starfleet at the time and had been for several years, linking with the group is a given due to his desire to learn as much as he can about them. Him going to give a sample to Starfleet (who he works with) is also a given because of their desire to learn as much about founders as they can.

Well-Intentioned extremist isn't the same as Complete Monster, they are the former. While I don't agree with their methods like everyone else, I still them for what they are.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 9:05 pm

There's nothing there showing how S31 is so good in that it was able to poison the Founders.  It shows that they reacted well (depending on your opinion) to circumstances that they couldn't control (but they were lucky in getting those circumstances - goes back to the star trek writers).

Whether you like S31 or not, I think the existence of it is supposed to be controversial.

[Tyler]

posted on September 11th, 2010, 9:11 pm

Last edited by Tyler on September 11th, 2010, 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A good intel agency is like a good tactician; they know how to spot and exploit opportunities. That's the same way the founders slaughtered the Tal'Shiar and Obsidion Order.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 9:52 pm

TNG was too optimistic to have something like S31 in it. Considering the bitching people did about S31 in the darker DS9, imagine what would happen to them in TNG...

Well S31 was certainly hinted towards in the TNG episode with the Federation Phase Cloak, it was merely displayed as a faction within Starfleet Intelligence.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 10:21 pm

Note, if #3 that I mentioned hadn't happened, all s31 would have accomplished is poisoning a loyal ally with an effectively incurable bioweapon.

They coldly gambled not only with his life (which they wanted to just let him die anyway, after all) but with the Federation's relations with Bajor, due to Odo's high regard with them, as well as his relationship with a Major in the Bajoran military.

Toss in that if the Klingons got wind of it, all hell could break loose, as the odds of them remaining allied, much less peaceful with people who do that to their loyal allies is just about nil.

It was a horrible, callous, and frankly evil thing to do...and it wasn't even a sure-fire thing.  It was a shot in the dark.

posted on September 11th, 2010, 10:27 pm

Nothing is sure-fire in life, the plan was no more unpredictable than anything else that happened..

ASs for the 'evil' part; you have noticed Starfleet tries to destroy them whenever they got the chance, right? That alone tells you they tend to do evil things. Unfortunatly, extremist groups like them often go with 'Utopia justifies the means' beliefs that don't sit well with more morally upstanding people.