V13 - stupidly massing them = Victory - Countermeasures?

posted on January 12th, 2010, 11:34 pm

When a game gets longer the Dominion seems to get a major advantage over the other factions. Not by sneaky stuff, but by brute force. In such games, the Dominion usually just produces and endless ammount of V-13. There is hardly a reason for a human dominion player to build anything else - V13 will do. It doesnt matter what you stand in their way - it gets slaughtered. V13 are balanced - as long as your enemy doesnt get more than 20 of them.

If I am correct, one guideline of FO balancing was to stop the "best ship spamming" of stock A2. This usually works fine, with the exception of the V-13. You know, perhaps some ship combinations would be even more successfull than that - but why should a dominion player resort to that if he can just stupidly spam V13 which will also insure his victory.

Main trouble imo:
1. Cheap price - cheaper than many far weaker ships of other factions. This results that you tend to be outnumbered, when even on superior numbers you loose or take terrible casualities against them.
2. Supply is high - but appears to be not a great limiting factor later in game
3. Combination of heavy shielding with devastating firepower at medium range.



What I tried:

Federation - Mayson Excel II: No way. First of they outproduce you, second the longer range does not help you much as they are in range rather quickly, thirdly when they return fire your (actually well shielded) fleet dies. Not to mention that Fed weapons are.... weak. Defiant? 60 % damage to battleships... short range... hardly a counter. Sensor blackout helped somewhat in 3.07 but not any longer.

Romulan - Norexan/Warbird spamming - looked like a good battleship counter - well it is.... just not as good as the V13 - I had superior numbers... but slowly and unstoppable my fleet gets more decimated than theirs. Intelligence Center? "Ohh, how terrible, I lost one of my V13 to a saboteur.... what for a luck I have 30 more incoming. The 2 Tavaras are nice - however they fell quickly to the firepower of the V13s. Should you manage to destroy the first wave... well then... congrats - if you are really good you have replaced half your lost fleet when the next wave of similar size enters your space. You can fight on for some time... but it is a loosing battle.


Borg - The only faction capable of withstanding such an onlsaught, at least for some time. However, the Dominion realizes usually that 30 ships are not enough to deal with several cubes - so they wait until they have 50 or more. You cannot attack their base, because they 30er fleet is already in there + defenses = your cubes are dead and then you are defenseless. In the end, they get more ships per time than you got another cube to deal with those additionals ships.
Now, with 3.1.0 the cubes last even less against such attacks due to the lowered regeneration rate. In 3.07 you could withdraw a cube from battle for a bit, making it repair to a state where you could send it into the fight again. Now, 4 chasing V13 are enough to give it the rest - goodbye 5000 dilithium and 130 connections. You now perhaps are going to suggest more smaller ships. But there is another problem in that case. 3 Spheres = 150 connections - one cube = 130 connection. Now, at least against V13, 3 spheres are not as combat effective as a cube. --> no solution.


My primary question now is:

What can I do to (economically) counter 40 V13 heading to my main base?

-- I have the same ammount of money, mines shipyards... ect..
-- I have the same tech level (max)
-- Retreat is not an option, as in that case they will annihilate my base
-- I can only spend roughly as much as the Dominion as if I spend considerable more money I will loose in the long term
-- The situation is unavoidable, there is no way to keep him down with rushing due to the maps and playstile we tend to play.

What ships should I build to stop a large V13 Dominion fleet with a race of YOUR choice from destroying my base. You have the full potential of all races available, the only thing you have to consider is that the defense cannot cost more in ressources than the attacking fleet.

I would be glad for any suggestions. I am tired of loosing smart choosen fleets against mindless V-13 spam.

posted on January 12th, 2010, 11:46 pm

No one. And I mean NO one can fully stop 'best' ship spamming. But I think that if you play against other Human opponents on a regular basis you will quickly realize that you can formulate a much more cost effective fighting force much earlier in the game than if you wait until you can mass produce your 'best' ships. So chances are you would not survive until that point in the game anyway, which is the ultimate deterrent to this strategy.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 12:04 am

Well, you're obviously not playing online.  V-13s got a cost hike, same as all the other vessels.  So I'm assuming you're playing against a merciless Dominion AI?  You do remember that the AI cheats, right?

After skimming your post and hearing a lot of      , you at least summed it up with bullet points so I didn't have to read the entire complaint.  Thanks.

The situation is unavoidable, there is no way to keep him down with rushing due to the maps and playstile we tend to play.

So you are playing with your friend.  So what are you playing with?  10 minute cease fire?  Free tech?  You're obviously not playing it the way it was balanced for.  Fleet Operations is primarily balanced for multiplayer without any special changes, which would of course unbalance certain factions a bit.  Unlimited resources would allow the Borg to make cubes all day.  Not very balanced.

So first tell us what you're doing differently, and then we'll either be able to tell you how to win or let you know if you're just being silly.

The patch hasn't even been out for a full 3 days.  Everybody's still trying to figure things out and get a handle for the new feel of all the races.  It's a little early to cry unbalanced just yet.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 2:41 am

Aye, Mal has hit it.

  While yes, I agree that it's very frustrating to see a fleet of V-13's coming to you and watch as they excessive strike your hulls ... that's the AI ... it cheats because it has to 

  If you still play against the AI then turn the Dominion AI's down to Hard.  If you're playing your friend then ... why on earth is he fielding 30 V-13's?

  Lol you mentioned use of the sensor blackout and such in 3.0.7 as if they were valid strategies when really they were almost bugs ... kinda makes me wish you'd try online play and see that fleets of V-13's are really not a common thing to see 

posted on January 13th, 2010, 2:49 am

*blinks* I find the V13 to be a decent hammer unit, but its the Breen Battleship that hammers everything flat that you should be complaining about. Also if your letting someone mass that many battleships you need to hit them early BEFORE they get 6 or so Ketracel mining platforms and 12ish miners working between them.

Dominion has the best late game ships cost wise. Our issue is supply. You have to hit and run our moons and make our miners die, or beat us before we reach critical mass.

Keep in mind I'm a hard core dominion player. This patch sees me become less effective due to Breen Cruiser code issues and a worse a24 bomber for the begining if Puretech.

Your best bet is to either change up the maps so harrassment is more of an option or play a variety of opponents so you know what works best.

The V13 isn't perfect. I'd use a mix of removing weapon targeting skill from the fed ship, and then hammer with E2s/Akiras.

That having been said you need to come up with a more indepth post on map and if your playing an AI or a human.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 3:49 pm

I speak about an human opponent, not the AI.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 4:39 pm

Mal once again speaks words of wisdom 

posted on January 13th, 2010, 6:18 pm

Im thinking that you're nit playing a "normal" game .

Are you playing with unusual rules or setting like infinite resources or something like that?

Mass V-13's really shouldn't be possible the way you are describing unless you have completely ignore him for 20 minutes or so.

posted on January 13th, 2010, 7:39 pm

I speak about an human opponent, not the AI.

So you are playing with your friend.  So what are you playing with?  10 minute cease fire?  Free tech?

I mentioned that I had figured out from your post that you are playing against a human opponent.  But again, you need to give some specifics.

At this point, I'll just assume you're doing free tech with 10 min ceasce fire and double resources.  I assume it's quite possible to generate the resources and pump v-13s out like that.  But you can do a little mindless spamming of your own.  Each race has the Autonomous AI passive, which reduces damage received from medium ships.  Right now, these passives are very hard counters, so choosing those ships will make you very strong.  So just create intrepids, or ships that do extra damage to medium ranged vessels, and that should work.  He'll have 40 v-13s, and you'll have about 80 intrepids.  And your ships can get out of the battlefield if they take too much fire, since intrepids are fast now.  Not to mention you'll have warp in.

posted on January 14th, 2010, 4:33 pm

V-13s?  If mayson, torpedo turrets backed up by Monsoon and Akira while you build up a retributive Sovvie/Excel II force.

As Dominion - Siege Cruisers backed up by fighter carriers and heavy cruisers, while S-7 defenders hold your base.

Borg - Much harder, but Nanites or Multi-beam spheres with regen/torp spheres should do the job, and then be able to push out.

Klingon - You have one real answer.  Negh'var.  Pretend you're him, and spam them back.  Your Weapon Overload is scarier than his special.

Romulan - Ugh.  That's a hard question.  The Tavvie is good, but for those, I have to say Generix Spectre should be your backbone.

These are mostly theoretical, and need to be flexible.  If you end up somehow with a fleet of officer K'vort, you'll find that it can cut a path through those battleships awfully fast if you keep them focused so they don't run off and seek out solo battles.  And none of it (barring maybe the Negh'var) should be unsupported fleets.

posted on January 14th, 2010, 9:03 pm

well, i noted: massing every ships wins too. But i see just 1 thing here: the dom battleship is the one that is most spammable due its quite cheap price. But it takes ages to get that far that u could spam there and till that everyone can take down a dom enemy

posted on January 14th, 2010, 11:59 pm

Well, everything is hard countered right now.  So you just gang up with ships that have the autonomous AI (like the Intrepid), or the other passive that does extra damage to medium ranged ships.  Then you're good to go.  In fact, battleships are more of a liability now, as your big investment can simply be destroyed by smaller, cheaper vessels that have the right passives.

[Actium]

posted on January 15th, 2010, 4:12 pm

Last edited by Actium on January 15th, 2010, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hmm, as soon u dont play FO like it "should" be played, it seems  the balance, specally of the dom, runs into the wall. I did a test in Lan with a buddy and ... well, im a newbie when it comes to dom, but actually i crushed him beyond the next galaxy, by simply outnumbering him. We did the "mistake" to agree both that we wont attack until 30 mins are over. We both used 8 Moons (4 dilithium and 4 Tritanium) and i made it to outnumber him by 30-40% ... Mostly because the dom ships are quite cheap compared to other races. Maybe some more testing is needed here, but at least for me it looks like the dom gets an advantage over other races with every minute the game goes. Im not Pro like some others here, but i dont think this is realy intended.

Edit: i do NOT ask for a quick nerf

[Rockspecht]

posted on January 15th, 2010, 4:35 pm

Last edited by Rockspecht on January 15th, 2010, 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

well, i noted: massing every ships wins too. But i see just 1 thing here: the dom battleship is the one that is most spammable due its quite cheap price. But it takes ages to get that far that u could spam there and till that everyone can take down a dom enemy

The problem with the V-13 is totally not its price. It's the fact that it has - compared to most other battleships - a decent weaponry, a great aoe special weapon which is perfectly used by special weapon autonomy AND it gets quite a huge stats boost when it levels up. These three facts paired with the fact that the price is ok especially for a puretech V-13 simply makes them useful in nearly any situation.

So if you're looking for a quick nerf I'd suggest either lowering its stats/raising the price or, just like the Negh'Var, making excessive strike disable one of the weapons or something like that.
Personally I prefer V-13's teamed up with C-17 over pure V-13 spam. I always feel that pure V-13's simply don't kill hostile ships fast enough which gives your enemy enough time to blast some special weapons, whereas the C-17's do help them there.

posted on January 15th, 2010, 5:10 pm

Oh my... I've stayed away from this balderdash as long as possible, but seriously ...

hmm, as soon u dont play FO like it "should" be played, it seems  the balance, specally of the dom, runs into the wall. I did a test in Lan with a buddy and ... well, im a newbie when it comes to dom, but actually i crushed him beyond the next galaxy, by simply outnumbering him. We did the "mistake" to agree both that we wont attack until 30 mins are over. We both used 8 Moons (4 dilithium and 4 Tritanium) and i made it to outnumber him by 30-40% ... Mostly because the dom ships are quite cheap compared to other races. Maybe some more testing is needed here, but at least for me it looks like the dom gets an advantage over other races with every minute the game goes. Im not Pro like some others here, but i dont think this is realy intended.

Edit: i do NOT ask for a quick nerf

Right now, simply put, the Dominion are horribly screwed. If you don't play the game like you should, lots of things get unbalanced. For instance, tech straight to Negh'vars and spam those and you can do quite wonderfully - in fact much better than V-13's (Funnystuff generated a tactic that works like this). Of course, if you do that, you gotta ignored everything early game, and you will be vanquished easily. If you want to know more, just ask, but at the moment it is unequivocally known that you only play Dominion if (a) your opponent doesn't know how to play yet, or is playing Romulan (b) you have a death wish or (c) you are holding out hope that the Dominion somehow can beat direct counters.