Some Turret Talk

[Boggz]

posted on November 8th, 2010, 12:41 am

Last edited by Boggz on November 9th, 2010, 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

  Howdy

   I'm showing this because I would indeed like to ask that, in the next patch, the Mayson Phaser turret be nerfed a bit in how much actual DPS it deals. 

   Also I'd like to suggest that the Alternate Weapon Mode for Romulan Turrets be changed to Torpedoes (or some other way of increasing their later game functionality).

  I am pretty sure I caught on that the Mayson Phaser Turret SHOULD be splitting it's damage among multiple targets, but an oversight this patch has caused it to fire both "pews" at a single target each time.  I do hope that it was just a mistake  .

  Here are some DPS comparisons of the earlier turrets.  I didn't include the Perimeter or Dodec Turrets (I feel they are really used in different ways than these listed turrets  ).

• Fed Phaser (M):  28.799 dps
• Fed Phaser (R):  17 dps
• Fed Pulse (M):  15.16 dps
• Fed Pulse (R):  13.89~ dps
• Fed Torp (R):  29.72 dps (and apparently can actually MISS targets - unique to turrets)
• Fed Torp (M):  33.50 dps (can also miss targets in the ODF ... but I've never seen it miss)

• Kling Torpedo (1 Target):  30.157 dps
• Kling Torpedo (2 Targets):  60.32 dps

Romulan was a bit harder because of the faster firing rate on opening combat.  Lemme know if I got this one wrong .  Also, keep in mind that this is PULSE damage 

• Rom (Standard Mode):  19.04 dps average during the first 15.75 seconds (6 shots)
• Rom (Standard Mode):  12.987 dps After the 15.75 second mark

  In alternate firing mode the Particle weapons will do 40% more damage to weak DV vessels like the B'rel or Rhienn.

• Dom Phaser (Shield or Hull):  11 dps
• Dom Phaser (Shield Only):  7.1 dps
• Dom Phaser (Total vs. Shields):  18.1 dps

To all of those people wondering about the Mayson phaser "is that sucker really that powerful?".  Yes ... it is .

About the Mayson change:
  - Granted there are many more peripheral ways in which turrets fit into the "balance" scheme of races as a whole, but the Mayson Phaser turret does seem to already have many things going for it (fast build time, only 150 dilithium down on construction, fast-moving construction ships, relatively low price, yadda yadda ....), but having literally double the DPS of a Risner Phaser when none of Mayson's other turrets come even CLOSE to that much of an advantage ... seems a bit ... whack .

About the Rommie Turret:
  - Rommie turrets are actually pretty decent here and there .  I use them as Mijural pretty frequently, but rarely as Helev.  However, to actually have them give decent deterrence even early-mid game they need to have a Transmitter near them, which ends up becoming quite an investment .  That's alright, of course, but once you've generally got those things up, the pulse-based turrets start to show their weakness as the general size of ships tend to go up.  Perhaps the Artillery-ranged alternative that can be researched could also change the weapons to Torpedoes OR just split the damage between torpedoes/pulses like Mijjie's turrets use to be.


EDIT:  Mentioned why I didn't list the Perimeters or Dodec turrets.

EDIT 2:  Adjusted some numbers.  Thanks, Dom .

posted on November 8th, 2010, 12:44 am

I notice that you don't list the Dodec turrets.  Is this saying something about the viabilty of those turrets?

posted on November 8th, 2010, 12:58 am

I notice that you don't list the Dodec turrets.  Is this saying something about the viabilty of those turrets?

Heh, no .  They are just different enough that I didn't really feel like including them

[godsvoice]

posted on November 8th, 2010, 1:22 am

Last edited by godsvoice on November 8th, 2010, 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

Personally, I love the Klingon turret, by far one of the better turrets I think.

Completely agree though that by stats Mayson would be strongest overall and yes phaser be best. I play Klingon vs Federation games a lot. AI builds entire squadrons of phaser turrets, yet maybe lucky to see more than two or three torpedo turrets... it is almost entirely phaser turrets.

At first I was just so surprised that the AI would build phaser turrets to such an extreme over torpedo turrets. So... few thoughts came to mind, 1. AI is stupid, and building the worse turret - yea for me, I dont have to face torpedo. 2. It is building the worse turret, but it is less expensive, and easier to build a whole whack of them, and the damage still adds up and dishes it out. (but questionable, AI is not one to be skirmish on resources, and I think it would build torpedo turrets if they were more worth it)3. Has nothing to do with anything I'm thinking about, and something in the way the devs or A2 had it set up for how AI plays its game, and I shouldn't really be focusing on it.

I like Federation turrets, I like Klingon turrets more. I wish Romulan and Dominion turrets were stronger. But this is also only because of how my experience has gone with vessel production with these factions. If I could build a decent fleet, I could accept a less powerful turret that is cheaper.  But initial production for Romulan and Dominion ships is high to start, and getting them to a good sized fleet seems much harder to do than Klingon or Feds. haha, so could we just make the Romulan and Dominion turrets stronger?

- so, you have Feds and Klingons, with strong turrets who can also get a decent fleet going, vs Roms and Dominion who I think have weaker turrets and its harder to get a fleet started so its like... head spin. I mean, I could be wrong, and I know it is more complicated than this. Dominion ships after prototypes can be built to excess, and whenever I play Klingon vs Romulan.... lol wow, Romulan ships just seem to crush my ships. So it's not as clear cut as that,... like Serkas, with all their other ships, my fleet does nothing against Romulans until I fill it up with Neghvars, Vorchas, Vutpas etc. But yeah, so I dunno... if Romulans and Dominion have their own advantage... I don't really necessarily want stronger turrets,  cause then they either have superior ships and awesome turrets, or awesome turrets with a mass of cheap ships they can spam after build prototypes.

lol, but yeah, I'd still like stronger turrets for Rom/Dom

posted on November 8th, 2010, 1:37 am

Wait boggz, your saying the phaser turret is stronger then the torpedo turret? (feds)

posted on November 8th, 2010, 2:24 am

When I play dommie (rarely) I build phaser turrets in groups of 3-5 with a sensor platform behind them.  All those polaron beams tend to work as a team to really viciously tear things up.  High supply cost, but that's nothing new or frightening to the Dominion.

posted on November 8th, 2010, 3:22 am

Well it would be surprising if a phaser turret were more powerful... but in one sense, that would explain why the AI fed builds them insanely.

Once I prolonged a game to unholy long hours just to create an incredibly strong AI home base... haha oh which it was. Four starbases, at the home base, and just a legion of phaser turrets, there were a handful of torpedo turrets... but it does seem that the AI prefers to build phaser turrets. Not to mention other defenses at expansions that surrounded the home base. It was a grueling battle. Not to mention shipyard after shipyard that were just restocking ships at incredible rates.

Unfortunately... I'm just way more experienced in dealing with phaser turrets, so if it were the case that Torpedo turrets were stronger, the AI just  doesn't build them enough to tell the difference or make it that noticeable. Well like, 35 vs 33.5 as you say... that is hardly much difference. But if phaser is stronger... that is interesting to know. I'm not entirely sure either way.

But again, if something were to be changed with turrets, I would rather see Romulan and Dominion get a more powerful turret, than for us to make it where everyone gets reduced turrets that aren't great for any faction. 

- and yes, for Dominion building numbers of turrets 3-5 or up, is needed in order to make it a decent hold... but in my view, 3-5 turrets for Dominion isn't the same as 3-5 turrets for Klingons. 3-5 for Dom, makes it that they are starting to be adequate and do their job, 3-5 for Klingons... that's just a fortress if built in a good location, or organized well and even if it gets destroyed, they certainly take down plenty of ships with them.

But this leads me to another question... why is the phaser dps higher than the torpedo, if torpedo as the higher offensive value? Wouldn't higher offensive value mean by default that Torpedo does greater damage?

posted on November 8th, 2010, 4:38 am

Even as high as phaser turret DPS is, I wouldn't mind them as much if they fired on 2 targets.  It's the volley damage that throws off any attempts to run or cloak in the early game.

As for Romulan turrets, what if the alternate armament worked like this:

Projectile Armament (Default): Long range projectile weapons that deal bonus damage to ships with <20 defense.  Low damage and requires no singularity transmitter

Torpedo Armament: Long range torpedo weapons, requires special energy from a singularity transmitter.

Now, here's the interesting part: the Helev avatar's Projectile Armament gets boosted to artillery range, while the Mijural avatar boosts Torpedo Armament to artillery.  So in a sense, Mijural still has better turrets but Helev can throw up better early turrets.  Of course, overall their turrets will still cost more for their effect than other races'

posted on November 8th, 2010, 5:02 am

Yeap, Being more like a Beam sphere and always splitting the damage would have a much more stunning visual effect, as well as not being quite so powerful.  Having one beam shoot off at one angle, and the other firing off in another angle would be most welcome.  Also, having longer phaser durations would give it more of that "DS9" feel whenever the upgraded station was attacked. 

posted on November 8th, 2010, 5:54 am

3-5 turrets for Klingon will bankrupt you.  For the Dominion, it's cheap and fairly fast.  Plus, it's not like they have a shortage of worker ships to do the building either.

It's another part of the equation.  3-5 Dominion turrets do their job nicely, are fairly cheap (barring supply, which is negligable to them if the mining is up and running), build relatively quickly, and make cool shiny beams.

Klingon turrets, on the other hand, do their job VERY well, are bloody expensive, and build slowly.

Fed turrets are reasonably cheap (and pound for pound, the phaser turret from Mayson is dirt cheap), do their job VERY well, and build quickly.  Fed Torp turrets, mind you, are also bloody expensive.

posted on November 8th, 2010, 6:37 am

I like the idea of Mayson being the turret master.  We should have one race/avatar which can turtle and have the appropriate defenses for it.  Maybe the way to deal with this is to nerf Mayson in some other way?

As for Rommie turret, I would welcome a changed alternate armament which improves its viability.  However, not every race should have the same strengths/weaknesses, something which people keep seeming to imply in threads a lot recently (ie: Race X can't do cloak detect very well, Race Y can't do something else very good).  Boo hoo is what i say to that.

[Boggz]

posted on November 8th, 2010, 8:55 am

Last edited by Boggz on November 8th, 2010, 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

I like the idea of Mayson being the turret master.  However, not every race should have the same strengths/weaknesses.

  I totally agree .  Not every race should have the same strengths and weaknesses.  However, I also feel that what they DO have should be worth building and not completely rendered moot within a few minutes of gameplay.  I feel that Romulan turrets (for their cost/time to build) are rendered relatively ineffective VERY quickly).

   You've got to be careful enhancing Rommie Turrets because their vessel's offensive cloaking abilities are SO good.  They've got to have a drawback (i.e. difficult to set up defences).  However, those defences shouldn't be obsolete once large vessels are on the board.  1 Warpin is enough to handle a number of Romulan Pulse Turrets .

Yeap, Being more like a Beam sphere and always splitting the damage would have a much more stunning visual effect, as well as not being quite so powerful.  Having one beam shoot off at one angle, and the other firing off in another angle would be most welcome.  Also, having longer phaser durations would give it more of that "DS9" feel whenever the upgraded station was attacked. 

   Yeah I agree here too.  I think that if Mayson even had 150% of the damage that Risner did, but split ALWAYS between two targets, things would be better balanced.  Right now it's got 200% of Risner's damage that piles up on one target at all times.  Seems to me to be a bit .... silly .

EDIT: 

@ Mal:  Also, if the Mayson Phaser turret was like the Beam Sphere (More overall damage, but ONLY if targeting multiple ships), it would increase the attractiveness of the torpedo turrets.  Since the torp turrets have a lower dps than the phaser turrets AND spread their damage around if they can AND cost nearly twice as much, there's really no reason to build them over phaser turrets.

[Tryptic]

posted on November 8th, 2010, 2:17 pm

Last edited by Tryptic on November 8th, 2010, 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I can appreciate that Romulan turrets should be weak, but right now they're ridiculous.  To be honest, I will probably never build the turrets I've suggested unless I'm in a team game situation where I NEED to hold some ground.

The big scenario I'm thinking about is actually FFA games where everybody tries to expand toward the middle. Since the beginning is all about defending your expansion and convincing people to not attack you, Romulans have it very tough.  Their strategy DEPENDS on raiding enemies quickly, but they can't make enemies until they know they have friends.  And defending with turrets simply isn't an option for them, like it is for every other race.

Making the different races' turrets closer to each other in terms of firepower and cost would reduce their uniqueness a bit, but it also brings balance to a wider variety of game modes and map layouts.  And there CAN be a big difference still, I just don't think the effectiveness of one race's turrets should be more than 2X the effectiveness of another race.

posted on November 8th, 2010, 6:40 pm

I wasn't saying to build 3-5 Klingon turrets, I was merely comparing the two. They are fairly expensive and slow to build... but there is always a price for quality. It was more stating the obvious, Klingons have better turrets, so an equal number will out do the Dominion's. Completely valid for everything you said about speed of Dominion construction and price... but I'm not really convinced. If you were ever to get caught with just one or two turrets for Dominion, that's hardly a deterrent. 3-5 is the solution... because that is all that works. You might as well just be building ships.

And it doesn't have to bankrupt you... just take your time. Build one, then build five ships. Build another, then six ships. Build another then build eight ships. Keep your offensive going, and steadily build the defensive. Even if your offensive fails each time, they won't be coming for a counter attack, because your increasing turrets will chop em up.

Klingon turrets do their job particularly well, especially when you have ships around to take some of the heat off.

I get that every race should have different strengths and weaknesses... but it would still be nice to have it they all have a variety of options. If on race is so offensive and they have no good defensive options.. I dunno.

posted on November 8th, 2010, 6:45 pm

I get what you're saying, godsvoice, and you're right.  It's really tough when you're an offensive race and you feel like your defensive options are severely limited.  I do, however, think there is a really important thing you might not be aware of:

  In multiplayer online cloak is an enormous advantage that is really hard to balance into the tech tree/ship stats/price/defensives and such.  Cloak allows you (strategy-wise) to be ANYWHERE at once if your opponent hasn't been watching carefully.

  That has to be balanced out somehow.  The idea is that cloaking races SHOULD know where their non-cloaking opponents are at all times and either be offensive or use their ships for defense.  Since they can technically (in the eyes of your opponent) be anywhere at any given time, for all they know your ships are at your juicy exp just waiting for them to attack.  That in itself is a deterrent.  You feel me?  .

 
    That's why the Rommie turrets are the hardest to set up and get going, because the Roms have the best cloaking technology and can be anywhere at any time.  The Klingons have a great big turret, but because of build time and cost cannot really spread those turrets around well and have to either be on the offensive as a form of defense, or use their cloaked ships as defense in some form.

  That make sense?