Slight flaw in the Romulan tech tree

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 2:11 am

To access the large yard of any race, you normally have to build the smaller yard first.  Not so with the romulans.  After building the research institute, you can go immediately to the Warbird yard without having to build the staryard.  I first realized it in some AI testing games where I was trying out some new things with the romulans, when I noticed that I can almost immediately get the Warbird yard out and first produce cehlars, then build a tal'shiar acadamy and spam norexans.

In the AI game, I stomped the AI faster than usual, and I just got out of a 2v2 where I had complete control of the battlefield with my Norexan fleet.  I even skipped my usual ruthless efficiency to help my partner keep his middle expansion when it was clear he was handling it.  What I'm trying to say is that at no time was I ever concerned about losing.

So I'm hoping that the devs can look into his before releasing the next patch.  The fix would be simple, since all it would be is adding the staryard to the Warbird yard's requirements in the techtree file.

If you want to test it out and see for yourselves, here is my exact build order:

Queue up 4 frieghters.  Constructor 1 builds the research institute, then builds warbird yard.  Constructor 2 builds dilithium mine and then tritanium mine.  3 miners total for each moon at your base.  Then a free constructor heads to build a dilithium mine at expansion.  Once Warbird yard is built, build a cehlar, and have the other constructor begin building a tal'shiar acadamy.  Once that is finished, queue up norexans, and build 2 more frieghters that will mine dilithium at your expansion.  It's important to make sure your first norexan gets out so you have more ships, so you might delay those extra frieghters if you need cash for the battleship.  After full production, build the second tritanium mine when you can and send one of your tritanium frieghters over to the expansion (so 2 miners per tritanium moon now)

I kept the cehlar at my base for a while, and used the norexans for harrassing, etc.  I haven't seen what this is like in 1v1 with early harrassment, but it seems like you should be able to defend yourself in time for any attacks. 

In short, it was really fun to own with my "early birds" , but it really felt broken as the romulans are the only ones who can do this; everyone else must make their lesser yard first.  Hopefully this can get tested and fixed before the next patch.  

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 2:12 am

Fixed? I thought the races tech trees were supposed to be different...

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 2:20 am

You might have missed the part were I mentioned that it was really overpowering for the players facing the business end of my battleships while they are still producing destroyers.  And if the Dominion, Klingons, and Federation all need to start at the bottom of their techtrees, can you explain to me why the Romulans should be allowed to start at the top of their techtree?

There's not much incentive to climb the techtree if you're given a scissor lift...

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 2:22 am

Hmm, I knew about this before (heck, it's in the Romulan Tech Tree for the guide), but never tested it as a viable strategy since I thought that the increased build time would mean my opponent could get out about 5 or so destroyers at the minimum before I get out the first Warbird  :sweatdrop:

Norexans could be cool though, with the pulse armament--still seems like a resource heavy strategy. I'd definitely like to test it out though with you in MP

In the end, it probably is a mistake that nobody realized or tried to take advantage of, as that means you could essentially get to a Tavara pretty darn quick.

[Anonymous]

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 2:26 am

Last edited by Anonymous on November 2nd, 2009, 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Indeed.  I built 1 Cehlar, about 8 Norexans, then had the cash to do the upgrade facility, built 2 Tavaras, and started on D'deridexes.  The Tavaras died (They had just came out and were my defensive force and had to take on a fleet .  They were fully upgraded too.  Thanks, Boggz >:(), but they bought time for me to swing up and decimate his force.  8 Norexans with MPW and dagger doctrine (2 vet norexans by the end!) was pure murder.  

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 2:50 am

Hmm. I realy think this is good, but only for mirural. I often find it difficult to win as her. This could be a great bonus for her avatar and should remain as is. Perhaps change it for helev.

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 3:14 am

I totally agree with Mal. It was almost unfair. The fleet of warbirds just swept aside anything the enemy had at that stage of the game. I think this needs to be tested more in a few games first but we were fighting Funny and Boggz and believe me they are no push overs but even they couldnt handle the raw power of the warbirds that early on.

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 4:23 am

I support Mal on this one.

  Funny and I saw that he was immediately teching and were stunned that it could happen so fast.  For a little example:  By the time my Klingon scout made it to Mal's base in "The Very First Map" he had just begun construction on his Warbird yard.  He had a Cehlar out by the time my second KbeajQ was ready.

  Granted:  in this game both funny and I tried different strategies.  I tried to utilize my Klingon-Fed mixed tech early on but still had plenty of destroyers to play with.  Only when I saw the Cehlar come out did I switch production to Susa's.

  Also:  Susa's MURDER battleships.  My god.  I destroyed Mal's first Norexan remarkably fast without loss using only 3 Susa's.  Later 8 Susa's destroyed a Tavara with the loss of only 1.  Remarkable if you ask me.

  So Yes, there is a counter to this strategy of Mal's, but let's be honest.  We still lost and Mal never lost the initiative.  He had heavy battleships out before I could reasonably research cloak detect and still have vessels to fight with.

  I think the point is just to make sure the devs know that this is the case.  Maybe it's ok to have it this way but it happened SO fast that there's really no reason to even build a staryard ...  The Rhienn's and their refits are not nearly as cost efficient as the warbirds early on.

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 4:34 am

To tell you the truth weI think we lost because of Greengoo taking the center and building that starbase. Also we realy messed up and didnt play at our best But yes this is OP but should not be completely removed in my opinion. Perhaps increase the construction time of the Warbird yard and it would be more balanced. 

[Anonymous]

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 4:52 am

Last edited by Anonymous on November 2nd, 2009, 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Just got out of a 1v1 with green goo.  Was able to survive early fed warp in, and if you can do that, you can survive anyone's early attack.   Anytime I attacked his fleet I handily destroyed it, and he survived by turtling up and building turrets.  Since Norexans aren't the best at handling them, it slowed me down considerably.  It seemed he had 10-12 turrets at each base, and it took me a while to realize I need to go down the techtree to get some Serkas.

To be honest, I wish it were easier to move up the tech tree so that every faction could access their battleships sooner.  You almost never see them in multiplayer, or you might see one or two.  Rarely do you ever see sizable fleets of them.  But only allowing the Romulans their top tier ships while everyone else needs to climb the tree isn't fair, and I'm sure it's just a mistake.  To be honest, funny, I still don't think they should be allowed to do it  this way.

Edit:  Funniest part of the 2v2 game:  "Boggz.  Move your scout.  I want to build there...."

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 7:38 am

Edit:  Funniest part of the 2v2 game:  "Boggz.  Move your scout.  I want to build there...."

  Lol I never though of that actually happening.

  You know Goo tried it on me earlier and I saw it coming about the same time I did with Mal.  I think Goo mistook the avatar and didn't pick Mijural.  Mistake indeed.  However with a few Susa's I was able to steamroll the battleship when it came out.  Granted I may have had a very difficult time if I hadn't immediately moved to make susa's with Last ditch.

[Optec]

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 1:42 pm

Last edited by Optec on November 2nd, 2009, 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aye, thats intended ^^ but i will take a second look at it

//edit: I have taken a look and done some brief testing, and i will modify some techtree costs, the basic techtrees themselves will remain intact. Cause romulans like battleships

//edit2: The Tal'Shiar Academy will now require the Staryard to be built

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 2:31 pm

Sweet. Nice fix. And oh lol that was so funny 

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 4:25 pm

Thanks, Optec.  That will fix things just fine.   I might have to play with this a little bit before the patch, because I'm with the Romulans; I like battleships, too!

posted on November 2nd, 2009, 4:36 pm

Yeah, in the show, 98% of the time, the only ships the rommies were willing to let other races see were the big dogs.  Everything else seemed to stay in Romulan space.  So it makes sense to me that the romulans would actually be ready and willing to operate a battle with nothing but battleships.

It scares the enemy, and that fear can be exploited.