Rhienn Disruptor Refit - far too powerful?

posted on October 22nd, 2009, 8:18 am

Long time since i posted ... but this (Khmm) exchange of "oppinions" is realy ...

I hope to see this "game" posted ...  :detective:

'till then Dex remains in the  :shuriken:

posted on October 22nd, 2009, 1:46 pm

I'm going to post this opinion using my Vulcan half of me..... ahem...

Logically a destroyer with a long range of fire should in fact have its advantages. Though as the devs say, "Long ranged vessels should deal slightly less damage than a standard range vessel." I find it intriguing how this little destroyer with a rather extended range of fire can actually cripple enemy fleets. Often at times it seems illogical to find a Romulan vessel with a 360 disruptor since according to canon, disruptors supposedly have a narrower fire arc than a phaser or torpedo. Unless the romulans somehow unveiled a disruptor firing on an array, I do not see the point that it can fire on a full arc. Yet the question remains if it is balanced. So far... no, though I am certain it will be reworked as the devs say. As of how it is unbalanced... I see some arguement. Though I'd be more than intrigued to say that the main imbalance is possibly pointing more towards its 360 arc Beam disruptor. Well, I have a proposal that may be most agreeable. If we were to narrow its 360 arc to a 180... or even a 120, this would limit it strictly to forward firing. Though there is another solution. I also propose not only to limit its fire arc, but to have a Short Ranged aft only disruptor. This way it relatively still has its full arc, just more balanced. Because a long ranged disruptor firing from the aft quarter meant it could easily outgun a standard crusier while being chased. This would eventually lead to the "ubber" ship being destroyed.

Though, if we were to keep its 360 firing arc, maybe a reduction of its range can be proposed. Because if the Beam alone had its range reduced... then it would be less of a problem. Though its damage deal should also be decreased because logically a 360 weapon should deal less damage than a forward arc weapon. Like, maybe 20% less damage would seem a good compromise? After all, this is a game of balance... not one of fury and out-gunning like the original Armada.

Though its multi-target disruptor is also a problem because it deals about the same damage per beam. As this would contradict the canon idea of how beam weapons works because you are splitting the available power amongst multiple beams. Meaning the damage is also split. This means that if the vessel were to be redone, the multi-target beam disrptor should be replaced... though I would like to propose maybe a multi-target pulse disruptor instead. Allowing there to be a chance to miss the targets.

posted on October 22nd, 2009, 4:04 pm

Besides, if we're going to put down anyone, it should be Keanu Reeves for his amazing ability to not act.

If Sensor Blackout is getting changed, then there's no real issue anymore and everyone can go home happy. 

And now for a random Keeanu Reeves quote:

I'm a meathead. I can't help it, man. You've got smart people and you've got dumb people.

[Anonymous]

posted on October 22nd, 2009, 9:40 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on October 22nd, 2009, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You think I'd shun away from a good multi-player game?:lol: How quickly we forget that I was the one who posted the multi-player contact thread. I'd love to go head to head with Dom, but unfortunately I don't have an internet connection at home 

posted on October 25th, 2009, 2:50 pm

All I've gotta say is... no. All of my advice can be found in the guide but really...

1. Disrupter Rhienns are a HORRIBLE counter for Borg. Spheres massacre the disrupter refit, and Assimilators will... well... assimilate them.

I have no spheres when 4 Rhienn Disruptor Refits are incoming soon after game start. However you are right if you say that Borg are better suited against them, because their miners can take considerable punishment.

2. Klingons as TaQroja can easily outnumber and massacre Rhienns, especially considering you will have to fight B'rels even before you get disruptor researched. As Martok it is harder, but then again, that is a late game opponent versus an early one. As Mijural, Rhienns cost an incredible amount.

You may be right.

3. Pure Sabers are one of the best counters to Rhienns, and where Sabers fail (most often Risner), Monsoons or Norways will do wonders. Sabers have pulse avoidance, a speed advantage, and can much out number Rhienns.

Moonsons have short range, they die before coming in range. Norway are better but it is difficult to have them at the time 4 Rhienns appear to eat your mining. Sabers may have the same range, but they cannot cloak and have poor firepower. They also take long to build. Their speed advantage is made irrelevant by the enemy cloaking device, the pulse avoidance is not important because the pulse weapons of the Rhieen are very weak, that is the reason nobody uses the stock one.

You may have your sabers a bit faster, but they come out of cloak and kill your miners, and there is few you can do until you have a large advantage in numbers which you dont have at this time. Sabers need long to build.

4. Bugs are not the greatest against Rhienns, but as Puretech you will outnumber them easily 2 or even 3-1, and if you are skilled in micromanagement, you will always outflank an equal opponent who uses Rhienns. Oh, and Breen cruisers work wonders on Rhienns.

I dont play Dominion that often so I cannot tell. However the early Dom Eco is very easily harassed, perfect for a cloaked predator.

Not only are Rhienn Refits outrageously cost ineffective when you've got more than 10-12, but unsupported they are quite weak. By the time you get 30, you will have had to purchase supplies... while still being left with early game units which do most of their damage in pulse based weaponry.

I dont speak about 30, i speak about 10 who will easily dispose any warp in you have and any other ship you can muster at this time. And they do most of their damage with the beams, as stated before they are weak with just the pulses. That is why they are strong in medium - late game.

One thing I forgot: make use of special weapons. S-2's, Canaverals (yes, sensor blackout), Griffins, Regenerate, Auto-Assimilate...

EDIT: last thing to mention. Cloaking doesn't help much if you use Tachyon Scan well or attack the homebase. You have to decloak to repair and if you are attacking mining facilities, it's very rare that an opponent will retreat succesfully, especially if they need that firepower to defend.

Specials weapons.. that really sounds fine, but as stated before, at the time a skilled romulan opponents has his little Rhienn fleet, you dont have a large fleet with special weapons ready.

Cloaking is quite powerful in early game, you cannot click cloak detection every 2 seconds for obvious reasons. They attack, killing your miners in seconds due the the large beam firepower, then cloak again and usually get away with it because the 3 sabers you have there first are no match for them and when the others arrive they are long escaped.


I am not saying that you cannot defend against them at all, I however say that it is far to easy to win by just mindless Rhienn spamming.

I also realize by now that Romulans are the favoured race of the developers and a majority of this forum, something that sadly reflects in balancing.

posted on October 25th, 2009, 3:01 pm

In early game it is important when you expand, you also have the capacity to defend your expansion. Too fast expanding would be expand and die.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on October 25th, 2009, 3:21 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on October 25th, 2009, 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I have no spheres when 4 Rhienn Disruptor Refits are incoming soon after game start. However you are right if you say that Borg are better suited against them, because their miners can take considerable punishment.

Well, I can get out a Sphere when my opponent has between 4-5 Rhienns, so I think it is quite possible

Moonsons have short range, they die before coming in range. Norway are better but it is difficult to have them at the time 4 Rhienns appear to eat your mining. Sabers may have the same range, but they cannot cloak and have poor firepower. They also take long to build. Their speed advantage is made irrelevant by the enemy cloaking device, the pulse avoidance is not important because the pulse weapons of the Rhieen are very weak, that is the reason nobody uses the stock one.

You may have your sabers a bit faster, but they come out of cloak and kill your miners, and there is few you can do until you have a large advantage in numbers which you dont have at this time. Sabers need long to build.

Do you play, or do you just talk? I can outnumber Rhienns 2:1 quite quickly with Sabers, and Monsoons are a great counter. It is also quite easy to have 1-2 Norways (or a Canaveral) and a Warp-In by the time 4 Rhienns come to attack your mining--and if you were smart, you'd build a turret and stop the attack cold. Rhienn pulses are strong enough if you pay attention to the odfs--nobody uses pulse only Rhienns because players like the range advantage and ability to fire at 360 degrees (fire while retreat). Incidentally, I get out Sensor Blackout after the 4th Rhienn roughly. Plasma Coil comes out after the second, so don't tell me that special weapons don't come into play immediately.

I noticed you didn't play Dominion, because you said their early eco is easily harassed. It is not. Dominion miners not only are medium sized vessels, but have very strong defenses. Not to mention not needing to worry much about unit costs until you've pumped out 10-14 Bugs.

I am not saying that you cannot defend against them at all, I however say that it is far to easy to win by just mindless Rhienn spamming.

So spam is 10 vessels now (EDIT: incidentally, in your first post you were talking about 30 Rhienns... so which is it)? I mean, earlier you stated that you aren't talking about more than 10, so that can be the only logical conclusion. Why don't we play a match where you "mindlessly" spam 10 Rhienns--I'll play a different faction . Perhaps I'll even play Feds, and then you can see how "easy" it is to stop a Warp In when you only have 3 Rhienns. The best defense is a good offense after all.

I also realize by now that Romulans are the favoured race of the developers and a majority of this forum, something that sadly reflects in balancing.

For your information, that bit is quite inaccurate. Optec prefers playing with the Dominion the most (and the Klingons as well), Doca I believe likes the Klingons, and Detektor likes the Feds. If you played online you'd also realize that the majority of people play with the Feds--not the Romulans.

posted on October 25th, 2009, 4:03 pm

Id have to say I only read the 1st and second response. I aggree full heartedly with Dominus. Reins suck againstborg (even with torpedo refit!). I had 13 reins attacking one sphere. The sphere won. Romms suck against borg. Also you said that 12 reins could easily take down a V-11. First, this game is not all about teching up; its about using well thought out fleets. Second, 1 rein costs almost the same as a V-11. If you have 1 ship vs 12 almost equal ships then I'd bet on the 12 any day. Also, reins have long range and Dom V-11s have medium. They could easily maneuver arround the slow V-11s. Not to mention sabers that have long range with fast speeds. Sabers can easily outnumber and kill a rein. If a saber gets damaged just retreat it. In my opinion reins are only unfair against klingon. Their long range and special multi target weopon can easily take out a fleet in no time.

[Anonymous]

posted on October 25th, 2009, 5:59 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on October 25th, 2009, 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fleet Operations is a pretty balanced multiplayer experience.  So come join us on wippien and play some games!   Your opinion of what is overpowered/underpowered will hopefully change after that. 

posted on October 26th, 2009, 3:01 am

Ok, Im almost afraid to get back in on this discussion, as it seems to have become a bit heated.  But I too agree with Dom in multiplayer matches.  They only reason I really fear the romulans that incredibly much, is the AI.  The romulans, (much like the borg) are much more limited by resources than build time.  The AI builds for so dirt cheap that even when fighting the borg, attacking mining doesnt even phase them. 

In this way, I would agree the romulans and borg are both overpowered, but only in the hands of the AI.

Not to say I've never beat them, because I have, but it is a royal pain to pull off.  I suppose this probably belongs on a different thread, but eh, the point is I think the Rheinn is not that unbalanced in multiplayer games.

posted on October 26th, 2009, 3:35 am

Yeah, if you really wanna see something horrible, play a game with all factions available.  Slide up the player cost slider about halfway from where it is.

Watch the borg and romulan players be forced to quit.  Borg first, though they may manage to squeeze out a transmission matrix, uni-complex, and stick conduction matrixes at their mining so they can try to assimilate the ships.

Their costs ramp up so high so fast that it's mind-blowing.

Contemplate that afterwards, and then realize that this is roughly the equivalent of what your costs normally are compared to the AI.

posted on October 26th, 2009, 3:07 pm

Actually I dont think so.  and here is why.  I checked the AI files a while back and noticed the resource cost and build time modifiers.  They are .1x cost, and .2x time.  Meaning the AI builds at one tenth the cost, in one fifth the time you do.  (without modifying the sliders).  This explains why I generally get attacked by the AI by the time I build my shipyard on small maps.  I still get swarmed even if I put the build cost for the AI all the way to the right. 

However, if I move the build time slider in either direction even one notch (this is wierd) the AI seems to lose its train of thought after awhile.  It just stops building anything, then Its just too easy.  My best guess is theres some kind of timed schedule to when the AI should build certian things on the list, and if it cant, for one reason or another it just errors out and does nothing.  Dont quote me on this as I dont know much about editing/manipulating AI, but I dont have another explanation at the moment.