Norway Plasma and Rhienn Rush Overpowered?

posted on April 22nd, 2009, 8:21 am

Not to lobby for an idea of mine, but what about a torpedo spread? it would be well adaptable to most, if not all races as a weak area of effect weapon. Perhaps as an SP weapon on one vessel per race?

posted on April 22nd, 2009, 5:00 pm

Doesn't the Galaxy have that?

posted on April 22nd, 2009, 5:07 pm

And the remoore if Im not mestaken.

posted on April 22nd, 2009, 5:54 pm

And the remoore if Im not mestaken.

I think you are, but I might be wrong instead! The remore just has the shield disruption.

posted on April 22nd, 2009, 6:50 pm

Eh, it has some kind of rapid photon weapon.  Doesn't really matter, what does is that the idea has been done before...

posted on April 25th, 2009, 6:29 pm

so i ve finished a game several minutes ago. and now i can say: I HATE THE NORWAY.
first the game: i was klingon a friend of mine fed. the first thing he did was building starfleet command and rushed my second ressource station. i had no chance i was heavily outnumbered and lost the control over the ressources. but i was able to rescue some ships and in the meantime i spamed kvorts like thers no tomorrow ( i thought there was none). then i attacked his 2nd ressources. in short. over the time i gained controll. neither of us was able to build bigger ships. BUT THEN: he came with the idea to build norways and i lost a whole fleet of kvorts. from now every second ship he build was a norway and i lost 2 fleets against his bunch of norway/warp-in fleet.
so please do something with the norway special weapon. weaken it or lower the area of effect. because the fed is a little unfair i think. they get 3 new ships with every warp in and then the norway...i hate it to play against them

posted on April 25th, 2009, 6:42 pm

Don't despair Drone, it is fixed in the next patch. Along with Nanite Spam and FoF spam 

posted on April 26th, 2009, 7:46 pm

it dosent need to be fixed, theres an easy way to counter it, dont build big ships, sure build 1-3 just to protect againstsabers or such, or maybye 4-5 to do a cloaked attack on mining, but go for bigger ships and spread out your fleet,

norways are pretty easy to kill, and in early game, theres not alot to protect the norways, becaus norways dotn have alot of fire power, they need a ship like akira to back them up, and to kill the ships that wernt hit,

so for instance, when traveling with your fleet, lets say you have 12 kvorts, so what you do, cloak 8-9 of them, and leave the rest uncloak, the ones that arnt cloaked, will face hell, but then the norwyas are out of power, so you uncloak, and destroy norwyas

or if you have 8 kvorts, and 3 larger ships, let the larger ships draw the fire, it dosent affact them as much, decloak, take out norways its all good

also, just build larger ships, with higher defense and fire power, as i said, norways go out quick, and cant really destroy anything, they have less firepower then intrepids

and this isnt only for kligons you can use it for roms to (borg dont need it)

as far as dominion, you have 3 options,
#1 opt for breen avatar, use the cloak stratagy

#2 just go for larger ships

#3 if your pure tech, sure go ahead, build smaller ships, but hide the others a good distance from norways, and send in 2-3 have them set to crash into a norway, so then plasma, but too late, you crashed into norway norway is sent flying or is dead, but either way, no more plasma energy for them, send in the rest of fleet, and kill them

norways dont need to be waterd down, you guys just need to find out how to counter them,

you guys told me that feds were fine, and that i jsut sucked and didnt know how to play them, and you guys wouldnt support any changes until i figured them out,

well i did figure them out and you were right, the feds are good,

now listen to me, you can counter them, you just need to figure out how, use the options i suggested, and if a cloaking race, scout there base, keep a scout there, and then remeber, norways cost alot of tri, as do sensors, and cloak detection, youll most likly be able to slip into there base, if not, draw them into yours, using my stratagy, where they will plasma 2-3 ships, and then when they go for your mining, decloak, finish norways quick before they recharge, and then attack any other ships

[Anthony]

posted on April 29th, 2009, 9:40 pm

Last edited by Anthony on April 29th, 2009, 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Okay, i'm going to jump on the band wagon... Just for fun 

Obviously i have only been able to play a few games against the computer, however as i might have mentioned i used to play generals and Zero hour... I played them online and quickmatched. After doing that for 2-3 years (often playing team games with my dad) i became quite good at understanding how to play an RTS against a human being.

Fleet ops has many similar things to generals, and Zero hour. The units are different but you have special abilities on units and also support vessels (instead of generals points). Resource is now handled very similar as well.

The Norway IS A BEAST. Lets break it down first of all.

It can be built very quickly. All you need is a ship yard and a science facility. This immediately opens you up to then build a Starfleet command centre instead of a research centre... Allowing a warp in of Descents or 3 other vessels.

It starts with a moderately useful ability, although that ability is low to begin with later on in the game it becomes very capable. I am talking about its ability to transfer special energy.

As soon as you have the science centre you can research its 2nd and 3rd. Now the 2nd allows it to OBLITERATE Destroyers and Frigates as well as other support vessels. Should it come up against Cruisers this is not a problem. By now you have a reasonable amount of sabres flying round picking off enemies that try to split up and engage from all different sides. Said cruisers fly in a bunch towards your Norway's and Descent... Said Cruisers die a painful death because even if Plasma Coil doesn't kill them off the Descent has reset shields and with that advantage and the damage they have already done they can just kill of the cruisers in attrition (there won't be any destroyers left gaurding the cruisers afterall)

So you have your Sabre flank groups and your Main fleet consisting of tightly bunched Norways and a Descent, most likely two by now (i love them  so maybe other people use normal warp in ships?)
Your running round destroying his expanded supply posts and generally causing havoc because of your fleets resiliance from Descent's as well as the speed of the Sabres. Coupled with a high build speed (2-3 Shipyards anyone?)

Your also now opening up your Advanced shipyards and because Norways are high in Tritanium you have lots of the other resource.... Perfect because thats what Excelsior II's need. You start spamming these and blockade off the opponents main route out of his base.

As Mayson you now have options. If his base isn't too powerful you just research the 3rd Norway tech walk into it and with one group of Norways blitz his cruisers... Descents provide shield support and Sabres do mop up. The second group activates assault module and pounds on his starbase with near immunity for such an early game unit, also happily blowing up mining facilities and ship yards.

If its too powerful you do the same but in a hit and fade mission, targetting his ship yards and mining facilities with your 2nd Norway group. Allowing you to spam torpedo turrets and TDG's at his bases choke points and thus keep the supply in your firm hand while you build up Excelsior II's.
Lack of supply and Periodic lancing strikes are going to sap him while your fleet is quickly becoming very veteran.

This is another issue, in the late game the Norways are going to struggle against the battleships? WRONG, with such a large amount of early kills they will have a lot of officers who get either +14% damage or +28% damage against battleships. Add in the assault mode special and they can go toe to toe with battleships if needs be.

Thus you have a strangle hold and fast, dangerous, multi-purpose units to react to raids and to raid. You have Artillery range turrets on the opponents choke points if you haven't finished him off and you are now producing an insane amount of Excelsior II with ACS torpedoes.

You launch a final wave. Chances are Descents are officer so with that final wave you warp in some regular ships to cover any pressure points or to hit the rear of the base at his mining facilities....

Thus i repeat again THE NORWAY IS A BEAST!!!!!

While all these options are good fun when fighting 2 Hard Computers... No one wants to play a unit so unbalanced you can beat to computers on hard with it!!!

I do however have a solution and it was stated in the first page.

Make AOE weapons do a total damage shared against all units. This means units with low health or singular units still suffer. However large units or lots of reasonable health units (cruisers) will suffer less. This allows AOE abilities to remain the destroyer busting specials that they are while bringing them down in power. It also allows the opponent a viable counter to the Norway...

SPAM so many destroyers that you overload the total damage output of Norway... Or build cruisers....

If your Klingon do both 

This is also how AOE weapons are handled by Sins of a Solar Empire and considering it is a brilliant game (if a bit lengthy and not Star trek  ) this is a good move. It is also a AOE system supported by a large community....

I'd support the Devs here and see how Shared AOE Damage works before making any other changes to the units. It is often best to make one change at a time... Smaller changes more often than big changes... It allows you to moniter the affect on game balance better and tweak the game into line... Especially given you are all in the tweaking stage...

Anyways im rambling... Just a thought.

Ray, one final comment... How can you (or anyone) think that the Norway is just fine or even a tad weak... I don't understand it... It has reasonable stats considering it doesn't need level 1 chasis research. It has 1 Moderate ability, 1 good ability and 1 STUPID POWERFUL ability. Finally it's officer rank upgrade allows it to go toe to toe with Battleships in groups due to increased damage output (+14% and +28%)... I mean can you imagine a veteran group of these in the next upgrade.. They would kill everything!

"Admiral the borg are invading..."
"Respond with strike fleet 1"
"Admiral the romulans and klingons are.."
"Respond with strike fleet 1"
"Admir.."
"Respond to anything and everything with strike fleet 1, they are hero level Norways fully teched"

"Oh... Of course sir... Shall i decomision the rest of the fleet?"
"Nah just keep them for showing the flag in the final assault"


EDIT:

Ray keeping ships cloaked won't work... Plasma coil hits you whether your cloaked or not.... Ie your fleet WILL die.

posted on April 29th, 2009, 10:24 pm

Okay, i'm going to jump on the band wagon... Just for fun 

Obviously i have only been able to play a few games against the computer, however as i might have mentioned i used to play generals and Zero hour... I played them online and quickmatched. After doing that for 2-3 years (often playing team games with my dad) i became quite good at understanding how to play an RTS against a human being.

Fleet ops has many similar things to generals, and Zero hour. The units are different but you have special abilities on units and also support vessels (instead of generals points). Resource is now handled very similar as well.

The Norway IS A BEAST. Lets break it down first of all.

It can be built very quickly. All you need is a ship yard and a science facility. This immediately opens you up to then build a Starfleet command centre instead of a research centre... Allowing a warp in of Descents or 3 other vessels.

It starts with a moderately useful ability, although that ability is low to begin with later on in the game it becomes very capable. I am talking about its ability to transfer special energy.

As soon as you have the science centre you can research its 2nd and 3rd. Now the 2nd allows it to OBLITERATE Destroyers and Frigates as well as other support vessels. Should it come up against Cruisers this is not a problem. By now you have a reasonable amount of sabres flying round picking off enemies that try to split up and engage from all different sides. Said cruisers fly in a bunch towards your Norway's and Descent... Said Cruisers die a painful death because even if Plasma Coil doesn't kill them off the Descent has reset shields and with that advantage and the damage they have already done they can just kill of the cruisers in attrition (there won't be any destroyers left gaurding the cruisers afterall)

So you have your Sabre flank groups and your Main fleet consisting of tightly bunched Norways and a Descent, most likely two by now (i love them  so maybe other people use normal warp in ships?)
Your running round destroying his expanded supply posts and generally causing havoc because of your fleets resiliance from Descent's as well as the speed of the Sabres. Coupled with a high build speed (2-3 Shipyards anyone?)

Your also now opening up your Advanced shipyards and because Norways are high in Tritanium you have lots of the other resource.... Perfect because thats what Excelsior II's need. You start spamming these and blockade off the opponents main route out of his base.

As Mayson you now have options. If his base isn't too powerful you just research the 3rd Norway tech walk into it and with one group of Norways blitz his cruisers... Descents provide shield support and Sabres do mop up. The second group activates assault module and pounds on his starbase with near immunity for such an early game unit, also happily blowing up mining facilities and ship yards.

If its too powerful you do the same but in a hit and fade mission, targetting his ship yards and mining facilities with your 2nd Norway group. Allowing you to spam torpedo turrets and TDG's at his bases choke points and thus keep the supply in your firm hand while you build up Excelsior II's.
Lack of supply and Periodic lancing strikes are going to sap him while your fleet is quickly becoming very veteran.

This is another issue, in the late game the Norways are going to struggle against the battleships? WRONG, with such a large amount of early kills they will have a lot of officers who get either +14% damage or +28% damage against battleships. Add in the assault mode special and they can go toe to toe with battleships if needs be.

Thus you have a strangle hold and fast, dangerous, multi-purpose units to react to raids and to raid. You have Artillery range turrets on the opponents choke points if you haven't finished him off and you are now producing an insane amount of Excelsior II with ACS torpedoes.

You launch a final wave. Chances are Descents are officer so with that final wave you warp in some regular ships to cover any pressure points or to hit the rear of the base at his mining facilities....

Thus i repeat again THE NORWAY IS A BEAST!!!!!

While all these options are good fun when fighting 2 Hard Computers... No one wants to play a unit so unbalanced you can beat to computers on hard with it!!!

I do however have a solution and it was stated in the first page.

Make AOE weapons do a total damage shared against all units. This means units with low health or singular units still suffer. However large units or lots of reasonable health units (cruisers) will suffer less. This allows AOE abilities to remain the destroyer busting specials that they are while bringing them down in power. It also allows the opponent a viable counter to the Norway...

SPAM so many destroyers that you overload the total damage output of Norway... Or build cruisers....

If your Klingon do both 

This is also how AOE weapons are handled by Sins of a Solar Empire and considering it is a brilliant game (if a bit lengthy and not Star trek  ) this is a good move. It is also a AOE system supported by a large community....

I'd support the Devs here and see how Shared AOE Damage works before making any other changes to the units. It is often best to make one change at a time... Smaller changes more often than big changes... It allows you to moniter the affect on game balance better and tweak the game into line... Especially given you are all in the tweaking stage...

Anyways im rambling... Just a thought.

Ray, one final comment... How can you (or anyone) think that the Norway is just fine or even a tad weak... I don't understand it... It has reasonable stats considering it doesn't need level 1 chasis research. It has 1 Moderate ability, 1 good ability and 1 STUPID POWERFUL ability. Finally it's officer rank upgrade allows it to go toe to toe with Battleships in groups due to increased damage output (+14% and +28%)... I mean can you imagine a veteran group of these in the next upgrade.. They would kill everything!

"Admiral the borg are invading..."
"Respond with strike fleet 1"
"Admiral the romulans and klingons are.."
"Respond with strike fleet 1"
"Admir.."
"Respond to anything and everything with strike fleet 1, they are hero level Norways fully teched"

"Oh... Of course sir... Shall i decomision the rest of the fleet?"
"Nah just keep them for showing the flag in the final assault"


EDIT:

Ray keeping ships cloaked won't work... Plasma coil hits you whether your cloaked or not.... Ie your fleet WILL die.

Cloaking them will work you just have to keep them separate from the non cloaked ships. that way the norways will use the plasma coil  on the uncloaked ships and then you take the ships that are off a ways and attack the norways.

posted on April 29th, 2009, 10:48 pm

Cloaking them will work you just have to keep them separate from the non cloaked ships. that way the norways will use the plasma coil  on the uncloaked ships and then you take the ships that are off a ways and attack the norways.

Perhaps, but in reality your weakening you fleet again... And against the Romulans or Klingons your not going to fire off 10 Norways at once, you'll fire of 5. Its usually enough to cause serious damage anyway... Certainly enough for Sabres to mop up...

Add in the fact that Norways aren't exactly slow and the phaser can fire while retreating and they will probs be okay!!

I think Norways are still evil!

posted on April 30th, 2009, 3:46 am

anthony you dont have clue how many norways i have lost while retreating, or attacking for that matter,

its like putting a nuke on the wright flyer, one shot and its dead

and yes, it may hurt cloaked ships............ but you cant target cloaked ships

[RCIX]

posted on April 30th, 2009, 3:50 am

Last edited by RCIX on April 30th, 2009, 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

If you're good with the ping and use numbers to control your ships.... on second thought, that makes the norways ability cost money...  as far as making a torpedo spread realistic, only give it to ships that have torps in the first place and make it lose the ability to fire torps for like 10 seconds thereafter...

posted on April 30th, 2009, 1:01 pm

Ray your not going to get through an engagement without losing ships. Afterall war is not won by the person who makes no mistakes but the person who makes the least number of mistakes.

At the end of the day just because you suffer heavy loses with Norways doesn't mean they aren't overpowered. Not to be overly harsh but just because you can't use them efficiently against opponents doesn't mean others can't.

At the end of the day the majority feel the Norway is overpowered and the reality is that if this is the case the ship will be altered.

Unfortunately you can never please everyone and if you don't get on with Mayson's units and style. Perhaps you should use Rinser instead?

Btw do you cover Norway's with Sabre opperations?? Afterall at the end of the day no ONE unit can WIN a battle.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 1:42 pm

Ray is pretty good with Mayson and as for Risner we will have to have a look at the value of her after the next patch cuz right now she stinks.