How Dare You Say That Ship is Useless!

posted on March 30th, 2009, 11:04 pm

The Shrike will get a little tuning in the next patch with additional anti-destroyer capability to make her a good suplement in the early game stage

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on March 30th, 2009, 11:41 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on March 31st, 2009, 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Interesting... will that render the Rhienn useless? Or will the Rhienn be nerfed to compensate (at the moment I think it is a tad too powerful)? I'm just wondering about the redundancy of unit roles here 


EDIT: As I said, the Rhienn would become useless because of redundancy. If you want to win, you build the most effective ship. If the Rhienn is no longer as powerful as the Shrike at taking out destroyers, then it is useless. And vice versa. Right now, the Rhienn and the Shrike are really only good early game because as soon as you get bigger ships (with support powers), the things get swatted out of existence. Let me ask you, do you ever use Shrikes in multiplayer when you are trying to win?

While we are on this note, what do people use the Leahval for... I find myself going straight to Frigate refit for Generix if I need that sort of firepower. I think I'm going to go test some numbers...

posted on March 30th, 2009, 11:51 pm

Why would the Rhienn be rendered useless? The Rhienn refits can multi-target, quite rare for a non-Borg ship.

posted on March 31st, 2009, 12:45 am

I've always felt it depended on which avatar I used.  The rhienn with disruptor refit was nice with helev because of the +3 offense and the reduced supply cost for the base ship.  I've never felt that the refits for the rhienn were cost effective enough to justify building them in bulk with Mijural.  Each ship costs like 31 supply after the refit, if I remember right.  I aways considered the shrike to be her early game choice that was cheap enough to build on her road to making Warbirds, which is where her strength lies.  Maybe that's not true right now, but I always thought that was what was intended.

posted on March 31st, 2009, 12:50 am

Shrikes unfortunately just don't stand a chance. Even though their pulses are rapid firing... they are pulses nonetheless, which means you can never retreat, and they have to be used for close combat essentially. The Rhienn does more damage after the research and has a cheaper base cost, and that is the final nail in the coffin. Plus, what's the point of the spy ability, if no one uses it anywho?

posted on March 31st, 2009, 1:07 am

Why would the Rhienn be rendered useless? The Rhienn refits can multi-target, quite rare for a non-Borg ship.

Yes, but the Galaxy is the only non-Borg ship that can muli target constantly.

Anyway, back on topic. I personally don't find the Rheinn useless in late-game, as I use it to take out low-priority mining colonies, a team of eight Torp-refits works wonders when led by a Spectre refit, and then I cloakthe fleet, and decloak a Shrike to finish the job on the mining facility, and hopefully get it to full officer rank, and the next enemy installation I attack, I will probe first and get full knowledge of fleet movements and everything. So, no, the Romstroyers are very useful in late game, when used correctly. Just leave Shrikes cloaked until needed, and your enemy will hopefully not suspect a thing. But I personally believe that destroyers are cannon fodder that do damage and protect capital ships, unless strength and defensive capabilities dictate otherwise (Excelsior, Monsoon, and Rhienn, this means you! ). So, destroyers are more useful in late game then one might think, because of fodder and recrew capabilities for capitial ships. See my point?

posted on March 31st, 2009, 1:23 am

Shrikes unfortunately just don't stand a chance. Even though their pulses are rapid firing... they are pulses nonetheless, which means you can never retreat, and they have to be used for close combat essentially. The Rhienn does more damage after the research and has a cheaper base cost, and that is the final nail in the coffin. Plus, what's the point of the spy ability, if no one uses it anywho?

Definitely.  I mean, take 8 shrikes against 8 disruptor refits in a battle and 5 of those shrikes are gone in the opening shot.  But the supply cost of upgrading those rhienns with Mijural always made my eyeballs pop out.  I guess that's what I was getting at.  It's like robbing peter to pay paul and has always seemed to bite me in the end.  I always felt like the shrike was sort of inbetween the rhienn and it's refit.  Just there for the very early game, using the money you might use for disruptor research to build the tal shiar facility and build generix's which cost the same as the shrike (and are way better) and then work for the support ability for their refits.  To be honest though, I'm not sure how well that would work for multiplayer , just my thoughts on what the shrike's role is.  Like you said, it doesn't work that way now.

As to the spy ability, I would love to see it damage something at the end of it's timer.  Like destoy the engines of the ship to like 95-98%.  Nothing serious, but it might take something out of commission for 15 seconds.  Kind of like the dom bug does now.     

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on March 31st, 2009, 1:33 am

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on March 31st, 2009, 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Do you play multiplayer Tyler? (I don't mean that as an insult; just in case if it comes off as one) I ask this because by the end of multiplayer games I play, everybody has cloak detect and sensor stations around their mining. If everybody has been doing things correctly, it is impossible to harass any longer using cloaking, and this is when the big ships come into play. I most definitely do not use destroyers as cannon fodder: instead I try to keep them as far away as possible so that my bigger ships absorb the hits (and if I am Romulan, their shields are replenished). If I let my destroyers too close, my firepower would be roughly zero in a matter of seconds, as most people target the weakest ships first, because they are the easiest to kill and have the most firepower in the end (and the big ships can one hit kill a lot of the small ones). I never get enough time to micro a shrike like that, because I can be sure that in the time it took me to do that, a fleet will be heading my way, or decloaking will be used on me. I'd see how the Shrike would be useful in an AI game though (when you have plenty of time to micro like that, and not worry about stealth detection or cost effectiveness of units... but I started this thread for multiplayer issues).

posted on March 31st, 2009, 1:36 am

Yeah, I play the odd game. I mainly favor the Federation though, so I can't say I have very much firsthand experience with the Romulans.

posted on March 31st, 2009, 1:42 am

Well, that's why I'm complaining! I pretty much only play online (AI is waaaay too boring: it's only good for testing out a few strategies, or seeing what units do what) and that's why I think that the Shrike is useless at the moment... along with all the other things that I have mentioned. I'm sorry this comes off sounding rude (it isn't meant to again), but unless you do play a lot online and are familiar with a fair amount of multiplayer strategies, it's hardly fair to debate the Shrike and Rhienn issue fairly (especially when you say that you haven't had much experience with the Romulans). Thanks for your honesty though 

posted on March 31st, 2009, 8:09 am

the shrike wont replace the rhienn for Mijural. The Shrike will get a special passive ability, that has a chance to kill of another destroyers weapons, making it much easier for the Rhienns to punch through without getting hurt. The damage per second of Rhienns and Shrikes remains unchanged.

[mimesot]

posted on March 31st, 2009, 10:12 am

Last edited by mimesot on March 31st, 2009, 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sounds really cool!

Does this passive ability work aginst cruisers and battleships too? To ask that in a more generalized way:  Will the Shrike play a role in endgame?

posted on March 31st, 2009, 11:59 am

at the moment its destroyers only

posted on March 31st, 2009, 6:37 pm

Sounds really good Optec; didn't even consider that approach 

Any thought about the other things I (and the other forum goers) have mentioned?

posted on March 31st, 2009, 6:58 pm

Regarding the Leahval question...I use them constantly.

I don't upgrade their abilities, however.  Myotronic Distruptor is the only ability for them that I use, and I leave them on full special autonomy.  It makes them a severe threat to every ship in the game, though the Sovvie and Descent give them a little grief over it, and as standard, large numbers are needed to take out a cube.  But surprisingly, they do anti-borg work faster, and with less numbers than the various warbirds.

The Borg Mixed-Tech Leahval is even more stunning if you can get it.