dominion fighters
You feel like a battlecruiser is too weak or a race too strong? Go ahead and discuss it here :)
posted on July 31st, 2009, 11:57 am
maybe you could add the ability, to kill all fighters, if the carrier would be destroyed?
posted on July 31st, 2009, 11:57 am
Why?
posted on July 31st, 2009, 12:35 pm
@Optec: I'm curious, is it anything like my suggestion?
posted on July 31st, 2009, 12:37 pm
sory, i think didn't express my idea properly: i meant, if carrier 1 dies, alls fighters that started from carrier one would die too.
posted on July 31st, 2009, 3:29 pm
I know what you meant, I just don't understand why that would happen. The fighters came from the carrier, but are not a part of it.
posted on July 31st, 2009, 5:30 pm
dunno, maybe because they need it to rearm? 
just thought of it as a way to balance fighters out^^
just thought of it as a way to balance fighters out^^
posted on July 31st, 2009, 5:34 pm
Maybe they could ram something nearby? Might put a little dent in the shields.
posted on August 27th, 2009, 9:21 pm
I thought the beta was just using the old Brinock Special weapon.Optec wrote:Yep, i have some changes for fighter handling planned in the future, to make them automated
posted on August 27th, 2009, 9:54 pm
They are already automated. Once launched, you don't have any control over them.
The only point you really control is when you launch them. Even the "where" is just roughly accurate from the point they patrol the area they are launched, not the area where you point them to patrol.
The only point you really control is when you launch them. Even the "where" is just roughly accurate from the point they patrol the area they are launched, not the area where you point them to patrol.
posted on September 15th, 2009, 12:14 pm
Fighters are smaller than scout ships and cost less. For the fact, that they need a ship to get deployed and are only meant to fight and not to scout, I could agree with the fact, that they have the same stats like a scout or slightly (one point more) after a refit. But that it is. The fighters are much to small to deliver a real punch or to deliver a real defense or to deleiver an armor that is able to withstand more than just one hit.
Maybe they can withstand a few hits from other scouts or light destroyers, but beginning on a cruiser level, they should withstand not more that two or three shots. Everything else is outbalanced.
Think of them as scout ships you deploy but way smaller. They are if you push your technology to bleeding edge in maximum equal to a scout ship + 1.
But you know, a scout ship isnt able to do anything against an enemy fleet. You need 3 or 4 of them to kill a single destroyer. So the question is: What should you do with them? If you get real, there is nothing you can do with fighters as they should be. The actual fighter of the dominion is worth more than a bug ship. So the costs should reflect this.
Fighters must be strong for their mass in order to be useful, but you must balance this out with other factors. The actual offensive/defensive values of the dominion fighters seemed to be okay in my opinion... only that they hav al litte to high defensive value, but the offensive punch is okay. Anything else would render this unit as useless.
I'm for the "mothership" solution. You spam your fighters and they will surround the ship that deployed them. When you give your ship the order to attack an enemy, the fighters will take out this order also. If you give your carrier the order to defend a ship/station, the fighters will do that also. If you let all orders go and send your carrier to another position on the map, the fighters will go back to the carrier and try to protect it.
What would make the fighters worth in battle?
Well, I thought about it and I have a solution. You can set the fighters to "defending" mode, so that they will try to defend the selected objekt at all costs. That means: They got a special ability that is able to shoot down enemy torpedos. The fighters itself get also a resistance against beam weapons itself. Their shields are especially designed for that and their main cannon is able to shoot down torpedos. So the fights can fullfill a role as "offensive stopper". They bring a part of the enemy offensive to halt, because their torpedos will be destroyed before they hit and their beam weapons will do less damage against the fighters themselves so that the enemy must break the fighter-line in order to fullfill an effective attack.
BUT in this modus, the fighters wont be very effective in their role of offensive craft. They dont have enough firepower left to do counter-attacks, because the destroying of torpedos already uses all of their offensive capabilities.
You may switch to offensive mode then. In this mode your fighters will try to attack the enemy like we know it. But they are small and fast. If possible, they will try to get out of the fire arc of an enemy ship. For example a klingon bird of prey only fires to the front. The fighters will try to get in the back of this ship and fire from there. Sure, the game enigne wont be able to fullfill that because I saw birds of preys that fired 180° to the left and right and the strong maneuverability of the BOP will cause that your fighters will get hit, at any rate. So we "set" the fighter on the enemy ship. The fighter itself only is an animation so to say, but the real position in game is out of the fire arc of the BOP. You can save you BOP only through cloaking OR if another ship shoots down the enemy fighter OR if you have a ship with 360° fire arc. Then the fighter will go to the position, where you have the smallest offensive power.
This manuver is only possible on ships with a lower maneuverability than the fighters have... so every ship instead of other scouts.
The offensive maneuver is effective against single or few ships. And while the fighters do their job, the carrier can deliver a good fire-support-punch.
I also like the idea of special energy that is lost after each shot by the fighters. So you cant spam them in your base and send them over the whole map into the enemy base.
What is the great advantage of fighters:
- They get nearly never get hit by enemy torpedos. (smaller than scouts - I think that should be considered. Maybe the possibility to get hit like a scout -10% ?? )
- If they get hit by enemy beam weapons, they can withstand them to a certain point.
- They wont deliver a real good punch, but they do constant damage that will bring any enemy ship down after a while.
- They are perfectly suited for defending positions because they can destroy enemy torpedos
So I think that fighters should more fullfill a defensive role. For a real offensive role you have you ships. We dont need another "attack" ship because I think the game lacks on defensive capabilities. And this could be a nice one.
Maybe they can withstand a few hits from other scouts or light destroyers, but beginning on a cruiser level, they should withstand not more that two or three shots. Everything else is outbalanced.
Think of them as scout ships you deploy but way smaller. They are if you push your technology to bleeding edge in maximum equal to a scout ship + 1.
But you know, a scout ship isnt able to do anything against an enemy fleet. You need 3 or 4 of them to kill a single destroyer. So the question is: What should you do with them? If you get real, there is nothing you can do with fighters as they should be. The actual fighter of the dominion is worth more than a bug ship. So the costs should reflect this.
Fighters must be strong for their mass in order to be useful, but you must balance this out with other factors. The actual offensive/defensive values of the dominion fighters seemed to be okay in my opinion... only that they hav al litte to high defensive value, but the offensive punch is okay. Anything else would render this unit as useless.
I'm for the "mothership" solution. You spam your fighters and they will surround the ship that deployed them. When you give your ship the order to attack an enemy, the fighters will take out this order also. If you give your carrier the order to defend a ship/station, the fighters will do that also. If you let all orders go and send your carrier to another position on the map, the fighters will go back to the carrier and try to protect it.
What would make the fighters worth in battle?
Well, I thought about it and I have a solution. You can set the fighters to "defending" mode, so that they will try to defend the selected objekt at all costs. That means: They got a special ability that is able to shoot down enemy torpedos. The fighters itself get also a resistance against beam weapons itself. Their shields are especially designed for that and their main cannon is able to shoot down torpedos. So the fights can fullfill a role as "offensive stopper". They bring a part of the enemy offensive to halt, because their torpedos will be destroyed before they hit and their beam weapons will do less damage against the fighters themselves so that the enemy must break the fighter-line in order to fullfill an effective attack.
BUT in this modus, the fighters wont be very effective in their role of offensive craft. They dont have enough firepower left to do counter-attacks, because the destroying of torpedos already uses all of their offensive capabilities.
You may switch to offensive mode then. In this mode your fighters will try to attack the enemy like we know it. But they are small and fast. If possible, they will try to get out of the fire arc of an enemy ship. For example a klingon bird of prey only fires to the front. The fighters will try to get in the back of this ship and fire from there. Sure, the game enigne wont be able to fullfill that because I saw birds of preys that fired 180° to the left and right and the strong maneuverability of the BOP will cause that your fighters will get hit, at any rate. So we "set" the fighter on the enemy ship. The fighter itself only is an animation so to say, but the real position in game is out of the fire arc of the BOP. You can save you BOP only through cloaking OR if another ship shoots down the enemy fighter OR if you have a ship with 360° fire arc. Then the fighter will go to the position, where you have the smallest offensive power.
This manuver is only possible on ships with a lower maneuverability than the fighters have... so every ship instead of other scouts.
The offensive maneuver is effective against single or few ships. And while the fighters do their job, the carrier can deliver a good fire-support-punch.
I also like the idea of special energy that is lost after each shot by the fighters. So you cant spam them in your base and send them over the whole map into the enemy base.
What is the great advantage of fighters:
- They get nearly never get hit by enemy torpedos. (smaller than scouts - I think that should be considered. Maybe the possibility to get hit like a scout -10% ?? )
- If they get hit by enemy beam weapons, they can withstand them to a certain point.
- They wont deliver a real good punch, but they do constant damage that will bring any enemy ship down after a while.
- They are perfectly suited for defending positions because they can destroy enemy torpedos
So I think that fighters should more fullfill a defensive role. For a real offensive role you have you ships. We dont need another "attack" ship because I think the game lacks on defensive capabilities. And this could be a nice one.
posted on September 15th, 2009, 3:42 pm
I like the Idea of giving fighters the "point defense" ability to destroy incomming torpedos. Maybe make a new tab for Interceptor craft.Give the new Interceptor the Point Defense Ability and a nominal 1 point boost over the new toned down fighter stats.
posted on September 15th, 2009, 3:45 pm
Instead of giving them Point Defence, why not have them double as Point Defence?
posted on September 15th, 2009, 3:56 pm
There is no discussion (at least on my part) that the defense and system values for the fighters is set too high. Contrary to what you say, I observed in a MP game a fighter that got hit by four Klingon turrets (I think they are the strongest in the game) and survived. That's taking too much damage for a simple one-man unit.
But a comment the other day got me thinking. The "Carrier" and "fighters" nomenclature is wrong with the current stats. It should be "Drone Launcher" and "Drones", understanding by "Drone" not an individual part of the Borg collective, but a destroyer-sized (or higher) unmanned combat unit that is either AI or remotely controlled. There are several Sci-Fi universes that use drones as viable combat units, usually as defense.
So, an alternative could be to "tie" the "drones" to a special turret. The B5 launches them, but they only work if there is a turret nearby providing them with... oh, I don't know... energy, targetting, telemetry, whatever. Obviously the turret must be built by a standard constructor. This makes the "drones" a valid defense system, with a weak point (the turret), and prevents their use for offensive operations.
It irked me somewhat that the only fighters that appear in the ST episodes are used by cadets in the academy. Logical extrapolation makes fighters unsuited for standard defensive deployment, and no fighter carriers exist in any race in the ST universe. By the way, I only watched DS9 once and a lot of years ago, so... Do the Dominion have really fighter carriers and fighters? I honestly don't remember, but I would have bet they don't.
But a comment the other day got me thinking. The "Carrier" and "fighters" nomenclature is wrong with the current stats. It should be "Drone Launcher" and "Drones", understanding by "Drone" not an individual part of the Borg collective, but a destroyer-sized (or higher) unmanned combat unit that is either AI or remotely controlled. There are several Sci-Fi universes that use drones as viable combat units, usually as defense.
So, an alternative could be to "tie" the "drones" to a special turret. The B5 launches them, but they only work if there is a turret nearby providing them with... oh, I don't know... energy, targetting, telemetry, whatever. Obviously the turret must be built by a standard constructor. This makes the "drones" a valid defense system, with a weak point (the turret), and prevents their use for offensive operations.
It irked me somewhat that the only fighters that appear in the ST episodes are used by cadets in the academy. Logical extrapolation makes fighters unsuited for standard defensive deployment, and no fighter carriers exist in any race in the ST universe. By the way, I only watched DS9 once and a lot of years ago, so... Do the Dominion have really fighter carriers and fighters? I honestly don't remember, but I would have bet they don't.
posted on September 15th, 2009, 4:01 pm
Last edited by Tyler on September 15th, 2009, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DarthThanatos wrote:It irked me somewhat that the only fighters that appear in the ST episodes are used by cadets in the academy. Logical extrapolation makes fighters unsuited for standard defensive deployment, and no fighter carriers exist in any race in the ST universe. By the way, I only watched DS9 once and a lot of years ago, so... Do the Dominion have really fighter carriers and fighters? I honestly don't remember, but I would have bet they don't.
The Federation often used Attack fighters armed with Pulse and Torpedo weapons in relativly large wings during major battles in the War. Considering the low Warp speed small ships move at, those things didn't keep up with a Fleet of Starships with their own engines.
Aside from them, the closest thing shown to a fighter are Danube Runabout's, Cardassian Hideki Class and Klingon B'rel Class.
posted on September 15th, 2009, 5:19 pm
In "Sacrifice Of Angels" you see a hideki class or two and as i recall it's like 5 times the size of a federation fighter... Maybe ~60% of a galor?
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