Combat Tractor Beam OP vs Borg?

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:13 pm

Same amount of energy needed to prevent movement if the object is already moving . Motion is relative to the observer.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:22 pm

I dunno as far as staying within the confines of established Star Trek laws, the ship itself has its own engines which fight against your influence with the tractor beam if it has more power to put it its engines than you can into your tractor then it overpowers and ignores your tractor. Which is the reason why the huge cubes can stop the tiny ships on the spot because of the overwhelming force they can put into the tractor. That's my opinion anyway : )

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:24 pm

unless you go by a2 physics and it disables the engines all together.  in that case they would have no problem holding a ship.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:25 pm

Tractor beams have made an appearance in ST on many occasions, and each time they did something different... usually mind-bogglingly different. From defying gravity within a starship, to being able to pull huge objects, to stressing the ship using the tractor beam, to damaging the ship being tractored, to merely slowing down a ship. We have no baseline, just like most accouterments in ST  :sweatdrop:

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:26 pm

And then there is the Dr. Who tractor beam!  It can pull planets!!

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:31 pm

Imagine a sphere locks on a holding beam and a klingon locks on his c.tractor 

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:43 pm

Lol I know this is off-topic but that reminds me of a time when I was klingons in a 3v3, stumbled across a venture using progressive scan, decloaked and captured it just as a cloaked enemy fleet was going by. Poor rheinns lol

posted on September 7th, 2010, 3:52 pm

regardless of the physics of whether a chargh can stop a sphere, or a venture can stop a cube or a runabout can tow a galor we have to consider game balance in this case.

lets analyse it:

- the chargh is medium tech, its not high end, its rather easy to make. requries only its yard. so a standard klingon progression up their tech tree means charghs are available with no extra effort than say sangs or vorchas.

- the special is easily researched, at the armoury, which is a normal build for a klingon, as klingons like the vorcha, so getting the special isnt difficult either.

so the chargh and special are really easy to get. but a cube is basically equal to a whole fleet of klingon ships.

does it seem fair that a chargh or 3 can hold a giant cube still and let all those sangs and susa gang rape it?

i dont think so.

thats why i think it needs a change.

having size affect energy usage is a solution that would work. a chargh couldnt hold a cube for long. maybe a second or two. but could hold a sphere longer, maybe 5 seconds, and a scube for a bit longer than it is now (to balance it out)

that way to handle a cube, you would need to invest in more charghs, which makes it fairer, as more charghs costs a lot of money, and if u are spending that money u deserve to get use out of it.

the same applies to disruptor bombardment, why should it hold a cube for so long.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 4:10 pm

regardless of the physics of whether a chargh can stop a sphere, or a venture can stop a cube or a runabout can tow a galor we have to consider game balance in this case.

lets analyse it:

- the chargh is medium tech, its not high end, its rather easy to make. requries only its yard. so a standard klingon progression up their tech tree means charghs are available with no extra effort than say sangs or vorchas.

- the special is easily researched, at the armoury, which is a normal build for a klingon, as klingons like the vorcha, so getting the special isnt difficult either.

so the chargh and special are really easy to get. but a cube is basically equal to a whole fleet of klingon ships.

does it seem fair that a chargh or 3 can hold a giant cube still and let all those sangs and susa gang rape it?

i dont think so.

thats why i think it needs a change.

having size affect energy usage is a solution that would work. a chargh couldnt hold a cube for long. maybe a second or two. but could hold a sphere longer, maybe 5 seconds, and a scube for a bit longer than it is now (to balance it out)

that way to handle a cube, you would need to invest in more charghs, which makes it fairer, as more charghs costs a lot of money, and if u are spending that money u deserve to get use out of it.

the same applies to disruptor bombardment, why should it hold a cube for so long.

Lets just simplify it, a cube is a big investment and when you put so many resources in-to your draw-breaker it'd be a bit crap to have lots of tiny ships combat tractor you while artillery pin you in andbomb you. Quick question does refresh cycle cure the combat tractor by any chance? Because I was thinking maybe add a post-buff to refresh for cycle tempory immunity to movement imparing effects?

posted on September 7th, 2010, 4:24 pm

Lolz.  If you notice your enemy making charghs (because you were doing proper scouting ), then you need to be building dodes, assims, and diamonds.  Borg play is a game of counters, more so than other races because you adapt to their passives.  If you made a cube when the enemy was clearly fielding a lot of charghs, and it dies, then it's your fault.

You can't use an argument like "I built whatever I wanted to as Borg and lost because I wasn't countering."

Also, you can test and see if nanites breaks the tractor beam if you guys really feel that strongly about it, which you don't.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 4:52 pm

Lolz.  If you notice your enemy making charghs (because you were doing proper scouting ), then you need to be building dodes, assims, and diamonds.  Borg play is a game of counters, more so than other races because you adapt to their passives.  If you made a cube when the enemy was clearly fielding a lot of charghs, and it dies, then it's your fault.

You can't use an argument like "I built whatever I wanted to as Borg and lost because I wasn't countering."

Also, you can test and see if nanites breaks the tractor beam if you guys really feel that strongly about it, which you don't.

this isnt about chargh spamming, its about a small number of charghs being used to beat a much larger and more expensive opponent.

1 chargh can hold a borg cube for ages. make that 3 charghs and they will have to constantly force fire on charghs to avoid waiting the full time.

nanites arent always charged. and dont always disable weapons. and spheres/pyramids dont have nanites.

1 chargh can hold a sphere so easily that u will never get away to regenerate. thats the primary strategy with spheres, dancing them.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 6:49 pm

Lolz.  If you notice your enemy making charghs (because you were doing proper scouting ), then you need to be building dodes, assims, and diamonds.  Borg play is a game of counters, more so than other races because you adapt to their passives.  If you made a cube when the enemy was clearly fielding a lot of charghs, and it dies, then it's your fault.

You can't use an argument like "I built whatever I wanted to as Borg and lost because I wasn't countering."

this isnt about chargh spamming, its about a small number of charghs being used to beat a much larger and more expensive opponent.

I never said anything about spamming.  If you notice your enemy making charghs (because you were doing proper scouting ), then you need to be building dodes, assims, and diamonds to back up your ships.

1 chargh can hold a borg cube for ages. make that 3 charghs and they will have to constantly force fire on charghs to avoid waiting the full time.

nanites arent always charged. and dont always disable weapons. and spheres/pyramids dont have nanites.

And the Borg have no way to overcome 1-3 tractor beams?  No Devestating attack, no slicer beam to quickly pick off a single ship?  Is force firing (one mouse click) on the one ship with the red lazorz sticking out really that hard?  Nanites will disable the weapons far sooner than the tractor beam will run out of power.  And the nanites "rolls" for a disabling chance every .2 seconds.  The weapons will cut out.  With the increased engine disabling chance, the cube will get away. 

Saying that nanites isn't charged (do you mean researched, or referring to the 12 second cooldown?) or researched doesn't fly because you have to research the tractor beam as well.  So one researches a counter, the other has several researches that counter that counter.  Tactics, me boy!

Again, why would you build a cube (or a sphere or a pyramid)and not have support units that counter charghs?  Or why are you making these ships when you know that you'll be dealing with some charghs.  You don't make Sovereigns or D'deridexes when you know you'll be facing some breen cruisers.  How is this different? (The best part is you're going to tell me the one difference, namely one is a special and the other is doing superior damage. )

1 chargh can hold a sphere so easily that u will never get away to regenerate. thats the primary strategy with spheres, dancing them.

I don't know what your thoughts were on this, but isn't this the strategy that everyone is saying is "zomg it's invincible and no one can stop it!"?  So a ship that can counter an "overpowered" strate....what was your point again?

You quoted my post, but missed the main point of it.  People easily get stuck in ruts where they only make spheres, or only make cubes because it's "super powerful", and it worked in earlier patches.  The borg no longer play that way, unless your opponent lets you.  But if they don't, then you have to use supporting ships like scubes, dodes, and probes to act as pickets to your larger, jucier targets.  If all you make are spheres and sphere dance, then taq'roja is going to stop you with charghs and veqlarghs (alt armament).

posted on September 7th, 2010, 7:08 pm

dont just repeat yourself with bits underlined, i did read your points, and dismissed them 

even if u have a mixed fleet of ships, a couple charghs can screw you over good.

haivng a mixed fleet is a normal borg build anyway.

cubes usually have diamonds with them. plus the spheres and maybe dodecas you were using earlier.

it wont matter, the chargh's combat tractor will hold a cube still, and a cube is basically a fleet of ships on its own. do u seriously think it's right for a ship so relatively low in the tech tree to be so useful.

i never said have a lot of charghs, u dont need a lot. only a couple. keep them cloaked if u need to. and one of the borg's greatest strengths (the ability to retreat and regenerate) becomes a LOT harder to use.

if u kill 1 chargh the enemy can decloak a second. and u need to use even more micro to kill it quickly. all this time the klingon fleet is ganging up on the damaged cube/sphere

and about nanites, its such a useful ability that most people will use it a lot. leaving their ships without the energy for more nanites, or dev attack, or slicer

and sphere dance isnt op, its the most common way of using the sphere, and it rewards micro, and can be defeated with careful planning.

the chargh makes sphere dancing very difficult. unless u retreat your sphere after the first hit. lets say u have 2 spheres. and all your lower ships were destroyed or rengerating (which is a common position to be in) and the enemy doesnt have enough to kill a sphere yet (also common). now u try to retreat a damaged sphere for regen, but a chargh holds u still, at this point u dont have transmission matrix or diamond up, so cant use any quick specials. and 2 spheres (plus change, like a scube/dodeca) wont finish a chargh off that fast to save the sphere. the chargh special is available around the same time as the first vorcha. its not expensive and has amazing power to kill borg.

posted on September 7th, 2010, 7:23 pm

I think this debate is so difficult to decide, so many points to and against that the best way to settle it would possibly be a replay myles vs mal?    Good idea?

posted on September 7th, 2010, 7:29 pm

lol mal dont come online much does he? otherwise i would play him a lot.