C-11 too weak?

posted on February 5th, 2011, 12:10 pm

well i did a few test and i think the c -11 does need some kind of review
c-11 vs 2 klingon scouts = ....scouts ftw
c-11 vs 1 K't'inga          = c-11 (with about 18 hull)
c-11 vs 1 B’rel                = B’rel
c-11 vs 1 K’Vort              = K’Vort hands down
c-11 vs 1K’beajQ            = K’beajQ
c-11 vs 1 SuS’a’            = SuS’a’
c-11 vs 1 Qaw’Duj          = Qaw’Duj
c-11 vs 1 bug                = c-11 
4 bugs vs 1 vorcha        = bugs 
4 c-11 vs 1 vorcha        = vorcha 

this is just the best .....1 c-11 vs 1 chor = chor ........

well i tested a hand full of ships from the klingon empire  and there not worth building in mass and if you build them to counter some ships ...well you better hope that its worth it because they can be destroyed rather fast .....you might say well there cheap to build but they still take time and if they are destroyed they give easy xp. so perhaps use them in late game .......but if you use them in late game ....then the dominion has a ship in there first shipyard that is not worth building in the early game ....and thats one less option the dominion have from there first ship yard. ....also did you know that a fleet of 30 chor class ships can easly defeat a fleet of 30 c-11's 

posted on February 5th, 2011, 12:13 pm

this is just the best .....1 c-11 vs 1 chor = chor ........

Any chance you got a recording of that one?

posted on February 5th, 2011, 12:31 pm

Any chance you got a recording of that one?

that would last all day. chors can repel a sabre for certain, maybe a rhienn, havnt tried it.

let me point out something i think you have ignored (OP) the c11 is a support ship. it shouldnt be able to beat non support ships 1v1.  the canaveral is pretty weak too. it has a special that makes it have more resistance at the cost of losing its best special. the leahval is a support ship, but not many people use it as such because its specials are all used on itself, its a vain ship that is really a combat ship for most people. the remore and c17 (C17 much more than remore) do ok in combat because they are higher tech levels.

the c11 is weak, but deserves to be. its energy restorer is useful if you have bombers and s2 in your fleet, you can recharge their energy for useful specials more. cascade feedback is good if your enemy is spamming leahvals. weapon focus is also interesting. the dominion arty range stuff comes much later in the form of HSA. i guess pink beam of death can tackle buildings. but early game the bomber is your turret demolition unit. the s2 can do ok, but it has to get into short range. so the bomber works against turrets, and only has long range, so turrets can fight back, the bomber special is undoubtedly awesome against turrets, recharge that with c11, the bomber if placed at arty range wont be able to reach the turrets, turn on weapon focus and they now can

the only time i would use c11 for something other than its specials is against a bug spammer. they actually work in that case.

posted on February 5th, 2011, 12:40 pm

I just tried a Chor Vs C-11 twice and both tries only lasted about 2 minutes at most, even with the Chor hitting subsystems instead of the hull multiple times.

posted on February 5th, 2011, 2:45 pm

Has a point tho altho not meant for 1on1s vs another ship it does die almost instantly in any battle making it totaly useless no other support ship of any race has that problem, its weapons are very very weak and its shield and hull is virtually nothing.

Since its the weakest ship in any fleet its automatically targeted.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on February 5th, 2011, 4:18 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on February 5th, 2011, 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

What Kestrel said about auto-targeting is why it's not a good idea to use them as a support ship. Sure, you can get off one or two specials, but the C-11 is going to die in the first fleet engagement (and I anticipate a "well then tell them to run away immediately", to which I respond that any cloaker will decloak right on top of or behind you, and long range units often pack a punch.) A dead support ship cannot use its specials obviously.

Of course, now you're all going to be asking "hey wait a minute, I haven't seen that happen in a game." Well, that's because if you've been paying attention to every replay since 3.1.4's release you'd notice that (unless I missed one somewhere) none of those replays showed even one C-11 being built.
Even if I did miss one or two, that still makes it the most unused ship in the game. Even the Cho'naq, well-known for being almost completely useless, has seen more action.

Dom of course will say that C-11 with Bugs is an Intrepid counter, and thus there is a use beyond just hoping they stay alive long enuff to get off one special. Of course, a good Fed player will just tell their Intrepids to fire on the Bugs, and then get some proxy torp Monsoons to munch the C-11, while the Dominion will have to wait for a new prototype to switch units.
C-11 vs. Bugs has a similar problem, as once both Dominion switch units, the C-11 will get slaughtered by anything the other Dominion makes except Bugs and C-11.

posted on February 5th, 2011, 6:04 pm

I agree that the C-11 needs a boost, but this thread needs a bit more ideas and a bit less arguing.  Nobody's even said "it's fine as it is" and you guys are defending yourselves against an imaginary person who took that stance.

Cascade Feedback is an area attack that targets only support ships.  The problem with this is, there's only 1 support ship in the game that is massable (leahvals).  The energy beacon is decent but dominion players have a lot of macro to worry about and usually don't have the brain power to spare to figure out a strategy that uses it.

And the range-boosting effect, I've already found out doesn't work on Breen Cruisers, in fact it may not work at all but nobody's noticed because of low usage.  I think B.C.'s are the only ship I'd use that effect on anyway.

Seeing as how the C-11 gets auto-targeted, has low hitpoints and requires a useless prototype, I think it would be okay for its abilities to be more powerful than those of other support ships.  Here are a few ideas:

First, give the C-11 a speed of 150.  They're incredibly flimsy, but have the high system value that lets them "hit-and-run" and then regenerate.  However currently it's almost impossible to run away with them.  A ship this small and specialized makes a good candidate to be the fastest ship in the game.

Second, make Energy Beacon restore 20 special energy and 20 shields to friendly ships.  This will provide a more stable "field logistics" role without making things too complicated.  It wouldn't be overpowered in combat because the C-11's can still get alpha-struck to death.

Third, make Cascade Feedback the second ability and increase its special energy cost so it can't be used as often.  It's a good special, but too specific to be the C-11's 3rd tier ability.

For the third ability, there are a few options.  The existing ability would do well if it worked, although I would suggest that the bonus get adjusted depending on the ship:  75% range bonus to short range, 50% bonus to medium range, and 25% bonus to long range ships.  This way even if they aren't exactly the same, the ranges of your ships will be closer to each other when the ability is activated making it easier to control them as a whole.  Actual numbers would need testing.

Another potential 3rd tier ability is a "Miasma" that slows down nearby enemy ships, giving the Dominion a catch-up or retreat option.  The field would center on the C-11, so it would need to dart into the midst of the enemy fleet, slow them down for a few seconds, and then die in a raging fire of enemy aggro while its allies escape/get into range.  Victory is life!!!  ...even if you all die.

posted on February 5th, 2011, 6:07 pm

If it gets a boost, I would agree with special boosting. Smaller Dominion ships were always portrayed as rather fragile in the show, only the big ones good take any real hits.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on February 5th, 2011, 6:42 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on February 5th, 2011, 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nobody's even said "it's fine as it is" and you guys are defending yourselves against an imaginary person who took that stance.

This isn't anywhere close to the first time the C-11 being weak has been brought up. I've heard arguments that "you should just use it as a support ship", "not every ship should hold up under fire", and "its good shield recharge makes up for having the defense of a Fed scout" (Dominus likes to say that.)
I would be very surprised if Myles' semi-defense of the C-11's weakness is the only time I hear those arguments in this thread.


As for ideas:

I don't think adding more cool support specials will help, it already has nice specials. The problem is that none of them keep it alive. Miasma might work nicely, but I don't think a C-11 is going to get into even a medium-sized fleet. It'll just blow up en route from some (non-Saber spam) Sabers.

A passive to put it near scouts on the targeting list would take away its weakness in larger fleet engagements.

Alternatively, it could get a special that makes it harder to hit. Maybe a targeting scrambler that makes a certain percentage of ships that target or autotarget it to instead fire at another one of your ships. Splitting firepower is almost always talked about as being a bad idea, so it would be nice to have a special that causes it.
A strong point defense might also be nice, as it would be useful even if it dies, and would make C-11s a good counter for spamming of a torp ship (if about three C-11s (with two or three S-2s providing firepower of course) were enuff to take out half of the torps from a group of Bombers made in the same time, that would probably be pretty nice.)

posted on February 5th, 2011, 7:02 pm

The C-11 is near worthless, yes, but we've been told it's going to change.  Just continue not wasting money and time on it and eventually it will change.

posted on February 5th, 2011, 7:05 pm

I can speak for myself thank you Nebula You're welcome to quote (rather than make up) my previous responses if you want to use them, I have no need to keep stating them

For all of those who keep talking about it's uselessness - that's fine - just don't wonder when some of us can use specials many times in a row a la Pink Beams of Death  B)

posted on February 5th, 2011, 7:07 pm

What about making it not need a prototype?

posted on February 5th, 2011, 7:09 pm

I doubt there'll be more than 1 non-prototype ship per yard, and we've already got the Bugship and T-15 for their yards.

posted on February 5th, 2011, 7:15 pm

I was paraphrasing there Dom, and you said it on Tunngle, so I had no way of retrieving your exact wording. If what I said is inaccurate, please tell us what you did say.

posted on February 5th, 2011, 7:23 pm

@ Dom, while I never doubt the specific uses the C-11 can have, the uses are so situational as to make the C-11 99% a waste.  Again, while I know it's going to change, it's hard to justify a ship existing when it's efficient uses are so limited.  I think that everyone just wants it to fulfill it's support role to a better degree .

  But again, since we know it will change, this kind of thread is just people reassuring themselves for lack of better information.