Balance crusher detected

[Anonymous]

posted on June 10th, 2011, 4:47 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on June 10th, 2011, 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hi

In advance this is about mixed-tech stuff for Dominion. Now I'm well aware that mixed tech will receive a complete redo any time in the future. Anyway I just wanted to mention it.

The last 3 days I'm seeing a new tactic from Dominion players becoming very popular.
I'm talking about double Dreadnought ship production (mixed tech, pure tech) for the Dominion. While it is impossible in 1v1 matches it completely messes up teamgames when facing dominion opponents.

In teamgames the maps are usually not just larger but the matches are also more intence.
So while it can be risky for a dominion player to build those very time-consuming and expensive ships (10 mins) it's actually easier than expected especially with the help of an ally sharing resources.
When supported by own fleets and their allies those 2 ships are somewhat OP and almost unstoppable in a very special way. You simply don't have enough ships to go for the bases itself and you're defending yourself also of harassment.

First lemme say that I think the balance and strength of that ship itself is totally fine like it is. The problem is that their special energy is regenerating alot to fast.
That means that the dominion player can basically wipe out entire fleets with those 2 ships. And that's what just happend in several games now.

In 1 game couple of days ago for example we had like 50 ships combined (late game & kling+fed vs dom+rom) I was a cloaker with vorcha+polerons the only real counter we knew to disable & take out the 2 ships. Defiants should also do nice against it. But I coudln't even fire my polerons because the special was activated immediately after the full decloak process ended.

And here comes the tricky part what makes it very unbalanced. With the right avatar you can get 2 Dreadnoughts what is totally fine but the smart Dom player will now simply cycle through the 2 ships with their "Mass polarization" weapon. Which will give him at least 4 times to use that weapon. 10-15 seconds later after all 4 regular uses of the special has been used he can actually use it a fifth time. Some seconds after that a sixt time. Assuming that he uses the special in that order: Ship 1,2,1,2,1,2. What is usually the case.


So in conclusion like I said above:

The special energy is reloading to fast. We managed it to destroy 1 of his Dreadnoughts but on costs of half of our fleet 'cause they were easily sniped during this disabling fleet effect. (4 times in a row) So basically he can disable fleets for an amount of 32 seconds and if they aren't able to pull back after that time passed he can hold them for another 16 seconds. Now if both sides have vast fleets under disposal it is clear what will happen to the disabled fleets. They get smashed within seconds.

Eventually he also easily replaced his 1 loss and we were overrun what was the case in 5 games so far with good and experienced players in both teams. Even long range units and artillery units appear to be helpless against that treat due to the fact that you can't get enough of those ships out or they wont make enough damage. It's everytime the same. You try to engage and then it disables your fleets.
And people can't really prevent the build ups if the yard is sitting next to the starbase also with enemy fleets guarding that + their expansions very well in early games. I know it takes a lot of time to get that ship out. And there are probably many scenarios to prevent it at all. But against equally good players it's very tough.

My recommendations:
Do some gametesting and see for yourself in 2v2, 3v3 situations with good players which also have good micromanagement.

Possible solutions&ideas to balance it out a little more:

-Increase the special energy reloading time a bit.

-Let everything like it is now but increase the possibility to kill subsystems on that ship. The different factions can use their subsystem killer weapons then maybe more effective.

-Reduce the range of that special field a little more. It actually isn't that large at the moment but against all medium range and short range ships more than effective.

-Increase the special energy costs for this specific special weapon at the moment it needs 740 Energy to activate that weapon. Perhaps make it 760 or 780.

-Give the ship a lower defence or offensive value while this special is in use.

-Reduce the effect time for that special of 8 seconds to 6 seconds for example.

-Reduce it's speed a little perhaps so that it can't escape that easily or that enemies can outmaneuver it. After all it's a huge shipkiller and not a medium sized ship.


There are many possibilities what could be and what shouldn't be these are just some ideas I had for that ship. Feel free to add your own constructive ideas here.

Again I think the ship itself is fantastic like it is but with this special weapon effect it's impossible to fight it or any other vessels which are in formation of that monster. I know there could be 100 of arguments to fight it or deny dom players from getting it in the first place. But like always there's a huge difference between theory and praxis especially with good harassment going on from both teams.

Draw your own conclusions.   

23-down

posted on June 10th, 2011, 5:35 pm

*ahem...  Well, I would like to put out there the option of rushing your opponent when you see them going for mixed tech .


  It takes a VERY long time to get a Dreadnought onto the field, even in a 2v2.  While Mass Polarization is a HUGE problem to deal with, I just have a hard time believing that you can't stop it.  If you can't stop the yard from going up, destroy the miners!  Dreadnoughts are extremely expensive as is the mixed tech research and your opponents will have few to no ships out during that process.


  I know it's scary once Dreadnoughts get out on the field, but as soon as you see that mixed tech facility go up, CHAAAAAAAAAARGE!!! 

[Anonymous]

posted on June 10th, 2011, 5:46 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on June 10th, 2011, 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ye you're right boggz but in the last games it still didn't work. They had their fleets I don't know how but they had their fleets after all. Dom+Borg a deadly alliance. Scube rushes keeping you distracted bugs, b8s probably cash from allies provided etc.

Anyway I stick with my original opinion it isn't easy when you're facing good players. And rushing a base with K-tingas etc works but where is the fun if the game is over so soon? I like long lasting games. None the less you're right but so do I. It is unbalanced to disable entire fleets for at least 32 seconds mixed tech or not it doesn't matter. It's just another sort of Hperspaceartillery like in version 3.1.5.

posted on June 10th, 2011, 6:01 pm

i think the tech up time is ok generally. i'd just like to see mass polar have a cap on the number of ships it can affect at once, like most other powerful specials. cos it seems a bit like the second you get that dread, things change too much in one instant. i think the cap should be something like 10, more than other specials.

because its really that special that does the stuff. alone a dread can chase ships down and will get ganged up on fast. and they die perfectly well. but that special changes things a lot:

they dont attack, they just wait, in which case you have a couple options. if u dont have cloakers then sometimes you cant raid effectively. and if u commit to raids they can trade with you, and they will quickly do damage to exps and yards etc. which results in a ranked dread which can spam its special even more. if u go after the dread, it will sit near a yard and repair over and over, while spamming mass polar and getting kills. even if you destroy the yard (which takes some doing before mid game) you still lose ships, then it just polars you and runs to another yard.

if they do attack then you gang up on it and try take it down. its special takes effect immediately so usually they will get mass polar off before u can hit with polarons etc. and then it takes a kill or two and backs off. using the second polar to stop you effectively chasing. especially if u take the chance to expand, then they can attack you while remaining close to their yard, giving you insufficient time to chase it down.

by the time you get a fleet ready to chase it down properly, they have pooled res and have a second. at which point if its 2 rom mixed tech dreads it will spam polar so so much. each time the 2 will engage with a few dirt cheap bugs. the bugs die easily, but they polar you and get at least 1 or 2 kills, then escape while using polar, so you dont effectively chase them.

then its just rinse and repeat for ages until it ranks up to vet, at which point it can spam polar non stop and use that singularity special to wipe out a yard in 1 shot.

i think that giving mass polar a cap would greatly improve things, as then its still hugely effective, making many ships stop firing and moving, but at least it doesnt scale in power as the game goes on. it seems a bit much to turn off an entire late game fleet in 1 shot.

an alternative heavy nerf would be to make the dread stop when mass polar button is pushed, then a few seconds later have the current effect. so ships can escape.

posted on June 10th, 2011, 6:03 pm

Sutee has used this 4 times now and only once it has been successful, i quit a game he did that when i was on his side because while he had no ships i was under attack by two opponents who were wiping me out and i got zero support from sutee and in the end i got so pissed off with it i left.

This tactic is fine if the 3 opponents dont do enough in the time it takes to get a dreadnaught but this is alot like the sphere rush in a 1v1 it will work once agaisnt someone then you should adapt to it.

Use the time you have to cripple one of his opponents and then that 1 dread he has isnt going to do alot.

Its a very boring tactic and rarely works.

Sutee used the same tactic yesterday as well and it failed again, i had about 7 prime spheres but both my opponents couldnt match the ship production of the 3 opponents, the dread is powerful but it is still just 1 ship and has a small area of affect for its special (this should be exploited to gain an upper hand) dont decloak on top of it.

posted on June 10th, 2011, 6:18 pm

Ye you're right boggz but in the last games it still didn't work. They had their fleets I don't know how but they had their fleets after all. Dom+Borg a deadly alliance. Scube rushes keeping you distracted bugs, b8s probably cash from allies provided etc.

Anyway I stick with my original opinion it isn't easy when you're facing good players. And rushing a base with K-tingas etc works but where is the fun if the game is over so soon? I like long lasting games. None the less you're right but so do I. It is unbalanced to disable entire fleets for at least 32 seconds mixed tech or not it doesn't matter. It's just another sort of Hperspaceartillery like in version 3.1.5.

  Hmm... yeah I see what you mean about Dom + Borg.  It's hard to actually harass a Borg player early on because they're ships are fast / strong and their miners are very tough.

  You're right about facing good players.  It can be much tougher, but good playing or not doesn't affect how long it takes to get your first Dreadnought.  I don't think you even need to K'tinga rush as a Klingon - KBQ / B'rel / Kvort / Sang whatever you have should work just fine.

  In fact you don't even need both players to do it.  If you're facing Borg / Dom then 1 player can easily harass the mining of the Dominion while the other deals with the Borg.  I know you don't like having to end a game soon, but if someone Dread rushes, you best end it quick or you'll face the problem you're having

posted on June 10th, 2011, 6:48 pm

I don't think K'tinga rush is very useful in that situation . K'Tingas are a very bad choice against Dom, since their freighters have a nice defense and their first ship has the KTinga values +ADAI - not the best choice. K'Tinga rushing against Borg is even more useless.

Actually I saw the strat only in one game so far. The game crashed before we could really play it out, but even if we had lost the dreadnoughts wouldn't have been the problem since they came very late and alone(okay, they were a lot of Bugs around which got wiped out immediately against our late game ships).

I don't think dreads are worse than a cube or Tavara, think about it: those things need 1500+ Dil and 150+Supplies, and 10mins time.

Would be interesting to know if the problems only arise with the Borg dread, since he has the highest system value if I remember correctly. If yes, one should probably think about tweaking.

posted on June 10th, 2011, 7:07 pm

rom one has higher sys value. borg has most stats in general.

see the dread itself isnt the issue, its not got too many hp and its not got op guns. its the special that can guarantee the kills, since it takes away the micro skill of the victim, allowing the dread a guaranteed kill if they keep an ok position with the dread. they can drag the game out rinsing and repeating this strat until the dreads rank high, and of course they have a normal fleet.

posted on June 10th, 2011, 11:10 pm

I could see this being very powerful with certain borg combinations.  Here are 2 things to consider that make the V-15 quick tech strategy weak:

1)  As already stated, it is possible to do early harassment.  It is also VERY tritanium heavy due to the research.  Keep hitting that tritanium and ignore the few defenders they can muster.  You can also immediately build forward shipyards (even possibly in their expansions on some maps! )  and gain massive territory.  You should generally skip the shipyard you were going to put on your expansions and put it on the middle moons (for example on Broken Borders) and stack a massive amount of anti-long range units and any ships that will do well vs a V15.

Now you have map control and will also have more ships when the battle happens.  Romulans have ceahlears, generix spam (the special drains energy and can shut down weapons), The klingons have taq brels with WF, KBQ, Sang (which can stay out of the ability's range), and Qawduj with special energy drain.  The Feds have monsoons for fleet tanking and any other ship they wish, basically. and on and on.  These and other ships do really well vs a big target.

2)  If you're not ready, don't attack!  The V-15 is slow as molasses.  You can harass all day long before it reaches your base.  And if the Borg are doing dodes, then  only the Dominion will be doing structure damage basically.  Trading a few of your mining bases is a great price if you can halt all their mining and take out some shipyards while their "all-in" fleet tries its best.  Then you can swing back with your now ranked fleet and take out their fleet, rebuild, and win.

"Flagship strats" are nice because if you have new players, it's easy to get them to rally behind the flagship and keep their fleet together with everyone else.  But it is definitely possible to defeat.

posted on June 10th, 2011, 11:23 pm

Guys you're going offtopic of course there are always ways to prevent this prevent that do this and do that.

But now assume that they have 2 or more (2 doms) of those ships on the field and that they successfully survived long enough due to great gameplay.

And that's the main point when that happens the balance is in danger.

posted on June 10th, 2011, 11:41 pm

I don't feel like it's off topic.  I guess we're contesting whether or not it is balanced.  It takes a long time for them to do that, and even if they are good players, they're putting all their eggs into one basket.  Also, there are multiple ways to prevent it, so what's imbalanced?  If you're doing great gameplay, then you have tons of options to cut it off.  A lot of us have dealt with it time and time again.  It's not the first time Sutee has done this, and it's definitely possible.

I can sum up your grievance in one sentence:  "The dominion player is able to chain freeze the engagement to keep his ships alive (retreat them) while at the same time taking out a few of our ships."

A lot of us have been there, done that.  Because it's getting changed and there are numerous ways to strongly counter it, I don't see it being an issue.  It then comes down to asking Optec to change something in the short term that can be dealt with using tactics.  That's more time (balancing even something seemingly so simple can take quite a bit of time) out of his schedule for the new stuff.  It still leaves even good players very vulnerable to early attacks and all the other stuff I mentioned.  It's actually very easy to counter.  It's also very different from something like Spheres + HSA, because HSAs are cheap, whereas V-15s cost quite a bit and keep you from building other ships.

I recommend long ranged torpedo vessels, as the freeze effect really isn't that large for ships with decent range.  Or just freeze the freezers with ceahlears, or shut down their weapons with S-7 defenders.  Again, there are tons of ways to keep them from chain casting the ability.

posted on June 11th, 2011, 12:06 am

Whatever I pointed out my opinion you pointed out yours and that's just fine. No point in continuing this. Different people different opinions. Besides it sounds like from you how that I would wish to remove that ship or something similar. That's not the case not at all.

I can sum up your grievance in one sentence:  "The dominion player is able to chain freeze the engagement to keep his ships alive (retreat them) while at the same time taking out a few of our ships."

Oh and you better stop putting words into my mouth. This sentence is just crap and not nearly what I had in mind when I started this topic. I'm just really concerned that once on the field it could really treaten the balance. But with this bullshit you told me everything I need to know about you. Thank you. 

posted on June 11th, 2011, 12:30 am

whoa easy 23, that post sounds a bit angry to me.

i agree that in some cases it can be cut off, my main problem is that if its not cut off with a vicious rush, then you have a single moment where an entire game changes, it becomes incredibly black or white, rush me or i get dread. which makes the game a lot less fun, i dont think thats how the game is meant to be played. i dont enjoy rushes or strats that hinge on 1 specific thing like that.

and of course that special, i think it needs to be capped to stop it scaling in power as the game goes on.

@mal, long range ships are a great idea, but (speaking from experience) they will charge at you with the dread, and long range torpy ships (e2 for example) arent fast, and when they turn away they cant fire their main guns backwards. so if they charge at you, you can either stop shooting at them, or let the dread close the distance, at which point it uses the special and can disable an entire fleet of e2, guranteeing at least 1 kill, probably 2-4, plus whatever kills they get when you try chase them with your slow e2s and they polar as they retreat.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on June 11th, 2011, 12:52 am

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on June 11th, 2011, 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

I faced this, defeated it almost (had to leave shortly after killing first dreadnaught.) Just get big ships like Vor'cha, stay with ur ally, and catch it while it's out in ur side of the map.
And try to make it waste the special before you chase it down.

I remember a rush like this way back in 3.1.2, it failed easily then too. No balance problem in 2v2s, it might be an issue in 3v3s.

posted on June 11th, 2011, 1:11 am

Easy there, 23 ... 

 
  Mal is trying to help you here.  People who have been playing longer than you have faced this strategy before (even from Sutee ) and have found ways to counter it.  Mal is sharing with you the ways to do that.  There is no reason to attack him when he's trying to help.


  Everything Mal has said about

1.  Preventing the Dread from coming out.
2.  Countering the Dread once it's on the board.

  I would completely agree with.  If you're going to make a balance suggestion about something you feel is too powerful, be prepared for people to challenge you on it and don't get so upset