are fed fighters short range?

posted on December 1st, 2010, 4:46 pm

with some help i did a controlled test with the avalon vs s2 last night.

3 s2s can destroy an avalon IF you stand toe to toe and don't repair them. you'll lose 2 s2s in the process. I didn't check with going for repair but i'd take a bet that since your losing firepower very quickly that way it would take even more s2s.

while the avalon is long range im wondering if the fighters are short range. since the s2s are weak to short range and the avalon launches a fair bit of fighters.

for reference before anyone posts you should have 8 s2s for every one avalon to make it a proper test...

avalon build time 104 seconds , cost 774 di - 220 tri - 50 supply

s2 build time 70 seconds, cost 327 di - 110 tri - 35 supply


that 50 supply sounds like a lot for feds, but e2s cost 20 supply and defiants 29 supply

posted on December 1st, 2010, 5:13 pm

Yes, they are short. They have the same weapon range of 400 that the Ambassador uses, though the unused tooltips for thier weapons also says Short.

posted on December 1st, 2010, 5:29 pm

This is sounding quite a bit more like a balancing issue than just a question about range  .

  I was in that game, Viper and I can tell you that S-2's should still counter Avalons just fine.  You have to keep in mind that all strategies and such change in multiplayer games (especially 3 v 3's) because there are simply more ships out on the board.


  By the time your S-2's were getting cleaned up by Avalons it wasn't JUST Avalons you were facing.  You had Elim's Disruptor Rhienns and Akiras to contend with as well.  On top of that there were multiple Avalons already on the board.

 

  Don't let one 3 v 3 dictate your mind on what counters what   (Gosh I sound like Dom ...) 

posted on December 1st, 2010, 6:18 pm

This is sounding quite a bit more like a balancing issue than just a question about range  .

   I was in that game, Viper and I can tell you that S-2's should still counter Avalons just fine.  You have to keep in mind that all strategies and such change in multiplayer games (especially 3 v 3's) because there are simply more ships out on the board.

boggz my post didn't say i was in a 3vs3 and found these results. it said i did a controlled test. those results are from an engagement where no other units were involved except an avalon and s2s. as i said the cost / numbers info was there to prevent the 'you didn't build enough s2s vs an avalon replies'. I think you should test it before you discount the effect concentrated fire of the fighters has.

personally im going to be looking for a better dom counter because the avalon is no longer long range. its now longe range and short range.

posted on December 1st, 2010, 6:44 pm

That's a weird issue, good job on bringing it up.  I think fighters should probably be reduced to dogfight range now that their AI is optimized.

I feel like another round of Fed battleships tweaks is coming, now that people will build them more and give more feedback.

posted on December 1st, 2010, 6:47 pm

Dogfight-range fighters sounds strange for a Star Trek game... sounds more like the range an X-Wing would be forced to endure.

[viper759]

posted on December 1st, 2010, 6:53 pm

Last edited by viper759 on December 1st, 2010, 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

im not really sure its a balance issue really. i couldnt find the range in the odf files but the damage works out that the avalons do 55 percent long / 45 percent short. so i guess the best counter would be good vs long and take increased from medium range?



Edit: from what i can tell the best dom counter looks to be the T-15 due to its increased resisistance to short range. it does less damage to long range by 10 percent, but in this situation that doesn't seem like it would be a huge issue. ill have to test that tomorrow to confirm it though.

posted on December 1st, 2010, 7:24 pm

Might want to test out Breen Cruisers vs Avalons. Just beware of a player that backs their avalons up with lots of small ships. 

posted on December 1st, 2010, 8:32 pm

Fed battleships

Federation............. battleship ?

ROFL!

posted on December 1st, 2010, 11:27 pm

Got an issue with the Federations battleships?

posted on December 2nd, 2010, 12:05 am

I think my fed battleships are going to have an issue with him.

posted on December 2nd, 2010, 1:01 am

Viper I understand that you did a "controlled" test, but it shouldn't matter too much because both units are built at very different parts of the game.

  You got really upset after our 3 v 3 and said that S-2's "didn't counter Avalons" ... so it's not a long jump from there to what you're saying here.  The Avalon might take a group of S-2's apart, but there's more to the balance than to just set up a few ships against another. 

posted on December 2nd, 2010, 2:15 am

Viper I understand that you did a "controlled" test, but it shouldn't matter too much because both units are built at very different parts of the game.

   You got really upset after our 3 v 3 and said that S-2's "didn't counter Avalons" ... so it's not a long jump from there to what you're saying here.  The Avalon might take a group of S-2's apart, but there's more to the balance than to just set up a few ships against another. 

i said they don't counter them effectively and i standby that observation. like you said they don't exist in the same part of the game. so one needs a good counter to avalons later on in the game. if your not breen, the late game hard counter is s-7s (which ive never seen anyone use. i suspect due to their speed). in the cases in which they do. anyway the solution i found after having it clarified that fighters are short range is the t-15 as they are going to be super resistant to the short range damage of the fighters.

boggz ive never seen anyone use an avalon in a replay or online at all until 3.1.4 and when it came up before people said it was and no one used it because the fighters didnt attack properly. now the fighters focus fire and do almost as much damage as the avalon itself.

you'll notice i never said the avalon needed to be adjusted, personally i think its fine. the new changes mean you want to use ships that arent weak to short range to counter it.

and boggz as puretech what would you field to counter avalons? (obviously not s2s since they're built in different parts of the game)

posted on December 2nd, 2010, 2:18 am

I'd still make S-2's .... unless the rest of the Enemy's fleet was made up of mostly short range ships like Intrepids or (god forbid) defiants.

  S-7's would work, I suppose.  They're only a little slower than Avalons themselves.

  Just cause you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it won't work  .  You're very quick to cast something off as "not working".  Give it more time ....

posted on December 2nd, 2010, 2:32 am

I pretty much always play as the Dominion, and when I vs feds and they make Avalons (Elim likes to Avalon rush sometimes to goof around once while  ) I tend to counter them with Breen Cruisers or in late game V13's (they are not really a counter but they are just a nice all around battleship). It really depends on what other ships the enemy has, if it's just Avalons then Breen Cruisers will smoke them in no time. If they have smaller ships like say.... monsoons or Intrepids then Breen cruisers will go down in no time flat. As said the S2's also works well again Avalons, especially in numbers but it's easy for the Feds to counter that by backing up Avalons with Intrepids or (in the case of the match vs me) a buttload of Akiras.