A little Rebalance for some fractions
You feel like a battlecruiser is too weak or a race too strong? Go ahead and discuss it here :)
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posted on September 18th, 2009, 6:40 pm
Last edited by Tyler on September 18th, 2009, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Baleful wrote:and tyler, you think the klingons and dominion spend pounds and pounds of latinum to build a ship, and something goes wrong on it, they just blow it up? you think they wouldnt try to fix it?
The Klingons don't care about the ships, just the crew dying like Warriors (and they will do everything they can to take the enemy down with them). If they can't, the crew will just be evacuated.
The Dominion just don't care, period.
posted on September 18th, 2009, 6:42 pm
Dominus_Noctis wrote:Agree Tyler. Bringing homogenization to all the factions is ridiculous. I can't really believe you compared it to Armada II even. Every faction WAS the same in that game... and that's why we are all here playing FO, not Vanilla AII.
I did not say the Dominion was the slowest faction, the engine upgrades do give a boost that does make the ships faster. That isn't the same thing as saying that all ships are faster than all ships of another faction. The Breen Cruiser is as fast as a normal destroyer after upgrades, but the V-13 is obviously not that fast. Look at the odfs or guide if you want to get a comparison for speeds across the factions. The Dominion certainly isn't the slowest (I think it is faster in general than all but the Klingons).
IF every race* (excpet borg) was to get a repair ship, they dont need to be the same, give some a tractor beam, they can tow a ship slowly away from the action while trying to fix them (klingon), give the rom one a cloak (like the mixed tech one) the fed one seems fine, with its upgradable ability. the dominion, i dont know.
Again, SPITBALLING ideas here, nothing more :blush:
posted on September 18th, 2009, 6:46 pm
Tyler wrote:The Klingons don't care about the ships, just the crew dying like Warriors (and they will do everything they can to take the enemy down with them).
The Dominion just don't care, period.
wow, well, the dominion might not care, i could condone that, the klingons on the other hand, by YOUR annalasis, then EVERY klingon ship should be given the "bug ram" ability.
"the klingons dont care about there ships"????
have you seen ANY DS9 episodes?
posted on September 18th, 2009, 6:48 pm
Yes, including the one where the crew was evacuated and the ship abandoned. The IKS B'Moth, I believe it was that they dumped without a second thought after the crew was removed.
posted on September 18th, 2009, 8:44 pm
Well, besides the obvious preference for hand-to-hand combat, the Klingons also had a design that rammed a ship and boarded it intead of making it explode. I think it's non-canon, though.
posted on September 18th, 2009, 10:53 pm
Well, its not like that we try to make every fraction to the same power, this would destroy the whole fun of the game.
But we should make this GAME to be fun to play. And thinks that bother the gameplay should be taken out or rewritten, I honestly think.
And thats why I want some rebalance here. Its not that I want to make the rimolan defense system as strong as the feds, this is not intended because it would take away the defensive advantage of the federation. But when we play the romulans as a sneaky fraction, it should be reflected in the gameplay. If you play it on the right way you should be invincible with your defense like the feds are... but not with brute force, you do it in a more sneaky way. And thats why I want to have a permanent cloaking device for the romuland stations. You dont know where they are, you dont know where they go, you cant attack what you cant see. This is flawless and if used the right way even better than 100 quantum torpedo arrays.
On the other side the federation:
They dont care if they are seen or not, they push their technology to high end in order to get the best protective shield out of it. You cant destroy a thing if you dont break the shields. And if your defense is strong enough to kill any invader you are on this side invincible. If played right.
Then we have the klingons. You cant get destroyed if you destroy your enemy first. You have no enemy to fear if there is no enemy anymore. So, crush them. Attack is the best defense. If played right --> invincible.
Then we have the dominion. They see it like the klingons, but with a little more watching to protect the founders. so they do a good balance between attacking the enemy in order to erase the danger but also do a decent job in order to defend their founders. The perfect balance between all those factors can make you one of the most efficient fractions, if played right. --> Invincible
Borg: You capture what will attack you. And if you cant, you just simply destroy it with overwhelming force. If you are able to capture the enemy, send this ship against the enemy itself.
Out of a 4 against 1 situation will grow a 2 against 2 situation, that will always give you the upperhand --> invincible.
We see, it is possible to do a perfect gameplay with all fractions, if all philosophies are used properly. How do we use them properly? That easy: Analyze your tactical and strategical possibilities and those of your enemy and do the most efficient counter attack against them. If both sides are now equal to each other, when they both do decent jobs, I would call it outbalanced.
The dominion is outbalanced in my eyes. What do we have left?
The Federation got a massivly strong defense force, but is weak when it should attack something. Only the defiant-class in support of Excelsior II and some support ships might do a good job. But it is hard. Only when you get your handfs on mixed tech technology, in order to build the Miranda II and the defiant class with a cloaking device, you are able to do great offensive tasks. The miranda II against everything that is smaller than a battleship and the defiant class against battleships because of their weapon disabling critical shot and best offensive value.
The borg are... overpowered. But I have no problem with it. The Feds would maybe be able to withstand them through weapon disabling special weapons. The klingons might kill them with brute force through their torpedos, but they are compared to the feds faster down. The romulans might be really invincible against them because they can cloak their stations.
But when we dont play against the borg but, for example against the federation, the klingons might be more efficient against them than the romulans.
And when we play against the dominion, the best fraction might be the Feds against them. Its a question of tactic. And thats so great on the game. There shlould be always a fraction that can be better than you... running in circles. borg are better than federation, klingons are better than borg, romulans are better than klingons, dominion are better than romulans, borg are better than romulans... and we are in a circle... you know what I want to say? And in order to fullfill that, we need rebalance.
But we should make this GAME to be fun to play. And thinks that bother the gameplay should be taken out or rewritten, I honestly think.
And thats why I want some rebalance here. Its not that I want to make the rimolan defense system as strong as the feds, this is not intended because it would take away the defensive advantage of the federation. But when we play the romulans as a sneaky fraction, it should be reflected in the gameplay. If you play it on the right way you should be invincible with your defense like the feds are... but not with brute force, you do it in a more sneaky way. And thats why I want to have a permanent cloaking device for the romuland stations. You dont know where they are, you dont know where they go, you cant attack what you cant see. This is flawless and if used the right way even better than 100 quantum torpedo arrays.
On the other side the federation:
They dont care if they are seen or not, they push their technology to high end in order to get the best protective shield out of it. You cant destroy a thing if you dont break the shields. And if your defense is strong enough to kill any invader you are on this side invincible. If played right.
Then we have the klingons. You cant get destroyed if you destroy your enemy first. You have no enemy to fear if there is no enemy anymore. So, crush them. Attack is the best defense. If played right --> invincible.
Then we have the dominion. They see it like the klingons, but with a little more watching to protect the founders. so they do a good balance between attacking the enemy in order to erase the danger but also do a decent job in order to defend their founders. The perfect balance between all those factors can make you one of the most efficient fractions, if played right. --> Invincible
Borg: You capture what will attack you. And if you cant, you just simply destroy it with overwhelming force. If you are able to capture the enemy, send this ship against the enemy itself.
Out of a 4 against 1 situation will grow a 2 against 2 situation, that will always give you the upperhand --> invincible.
We see, it is possible to do a perfect gameplay with all fractions, if all philosophies are used properly. How do we use them properly? That easy: Analyze your tactical and strategical possibilities and those of your enemy and do the most efficient counter attack against them. If both sides are now equal to each other, when they both do decent jobs, I would call it outbalanced.
The dominion is outbalanced in my eyes. What do we have left?
The Federation got a massivly strong defense force, but is weak when it should attack something. Only the defiant-class in support of Excelsior II and some support ships might do a good job. But it is hard. Only when you get your handfs on mixed tech technology, in order to build the Miranda II and the defiant class with a cloaking device, you are able to do great offensive tasks. The miranda II against everything that is smaller than a battleship and the defiant class against battleships because of their weapon disabling critical shot and best offensive value.
The borg are... overpowered. But I have no problem with it. The Feds would maybe be able to withstand them through weapon disabling special weapons. The klingons might kill them with brute force through their torpedos, but they are compared to the feds faster down. The romulans might be really invincible against them because they can cloak their stations.
But when we dont play against the borg but, for example against the federation, the klingons might be more efficient against them than the romulans.
And when we play against the dominion, the best fraction might be the Feds against them. Its a question of tactic. And thats so great on the game. There shlould be always a fraction that can be better than you... running in circles. borg are better than federation, klingons are better than borg, romulans are better than klingons, dominion are better than romulans, borg are better than romulans... and we are in a circle... you know what I want to say? And in order to fullfill that, we need rebalance.
posted on September 18th, 2009, 11:49 pm
A 'food chain' rebalance isn't exactly fun, or really canonical either. Some of the points you made were sound.
When it comes to war, each major faction has their own slant.
Federation - Achieve peace through endurance, and protection of civilian assets. In the shows, the feds frequently would (rather than launching attacks) endure the enemies aggression until frustration and economic stress brought them to the bargaining table...at which point the Feds display their greatest strength - Diplomacy. They bring about neutrality, and in some cases, new allies through this method. Even the Klingons had respect for Starfleet's ability to endure, though they scoffed at her offensive prowess. Without that option on the table, and with unlimited resources, 'endure until they give up' isn't an option for the feds. Fortunately, 'Endure until you can swamp them with Excel-II, Sovvies, and Defiants is an option.
Romulans - Projected Power is their watchwords. The mainstays of the Romulan fleet are massive, powerful ships...that cloak. This leaves the enemies of the Star Empire forever guessing where the next strike will come from, and even once the warbirds are visible, they are no pushovers. Worse for the enemy, they have no qualms about cloaking and running, then coming back again later...better prepared. They love to disguise their outposts as asteroids and moons (usually by building them inside of the things) and lay cloaked minefields in space. All's fair in war, for the Romulan Star Empire, ranging from spies sabotaging your stuff, and sending your critical information back to Romulus, to mining your trade lanes, to disguising themselves as your allies and attacking your civilian outposts to put you into a two-front war. The fewer Romulan deaths, the better, as well.
Klingons - War is Glorious. The vast majority of the Klingon people live in constant readiness for war. The Warrior Houses are unhappy unless there are battles to be won, and the Medical and Judicial Houses, along with the Scientific Houses, are unhappy while the Warriors are unhappy. With all aspects of society pro-war, the moment the fighting starts, the Klingon Empire goes into high-gear. Nobody except those like Duras' house expect any special perks except those they earn in battle. The laborers and scientists work round the clock producing new engines of destruction (or repairing old ones), the Medical Houses deploy throughout the fleet to get their Warrior brethren back into battle as swiftly as possible. Nearly everything and everyone in the Klingon empire is armed at all times, and eager to engage. Few Klingons are willing to retreat unless there is a very good reason to. 'We're going to die' is never a good reason to them, however. One is allowed to flee pointless failure, but to flee defeat or death is a coward's path. A Klingon commander, faced with the certain death of himself, ship, and crew, unless he retreats, is more likely to order all power (including lifesupport) diverted to the forward disruptor arrays, and the crew will cheer the attempt to take their enemy with them. They will die SINGING. And nothing, and I mean NOTHING enrages the Klingons more than their enemies using treachery as a weapon. Infiltration, to the Klingons, means a special-forces night assault, not spies.
The Dominion - Right to Rule. They believe (and the Gamma Quadrant stands as evidence) that the Founders are SUPPOSED to rule everything. Therefore, they are doing everyone a favor, by bringing everything under Dominion control. With the resources of a Quadrant behind them, and genetically engineered geniuses in support of the Founders, the Dominion has a technological edge over most opponents, and with their near-perfected medical technology (especially cloning) they can refill their ranks almost as fast as anybody could kill them. The aforementioned 'resources of a Quadrant' also allows them to produce ships in unprecedented rate and quantity, without sacrificing quality. This makes them a force to be feared...not because they excel at offense, or at defense...not because they are manipulative, brave, patient, or anything else of that sort. They have more to throw at you that they can replace without concern than you have in your entire empire...and they know it.
The Borg Collective - Millennia ago, the Borg were assimilating their neighbors. Nobody has truely stopped them yet. That says alot. Unemotional and relentless, the Borg are unconcerned with things that would cause other foes to falter, or even surrender. A single drone can bring about the inception or restoration of an entire ship or hub, provided the right resources. In this case, the resources are other sentient life forms. Like a technological plague, the Collective rolls over an area, leaving nothing behind except for two things. The Collective itself, and death. Dead worlds, debris, and the Assimilated. Fighting the Borg bring with it its own problems, as well. The more you fight them, the more they adapt to your methods. If they capture your weapons, the adaptation accelerates. They are obscenely advanced in almost all fields of technology, and the one thing other races can be thankful for with the Borg's outlook is that they are fixated on Effeciency. Due to this, much of the technology they have assimilated exists only in their vast databases, as it is too ineffecient for use, or too unstable. The Borg use only what resources are needed to accomplish the task at hand. No more. Unfortunately, unless you defeat a Borg incursion utterly, the rate at which you will see stepped up deployments becomes horrifying. The only thing saving most of the Delta quadrant from the Collective is...irrelevance. With nothing new to offer the Borg, and little in the way of resistance shown, instead of avoidance, the Borg simply ignore them until they present something new. That presentation is a dark day, as it brings the Collective upon them, and with near-universal application...they become one with it.
Every single faction in the Star Trek universe excels at something. Few are truely 'better' than any other. Even the Ferengi are capable of threatening greater empires than their own through their monolithic wealth. The ability to purchase enormous fleets is not to be underestimated. The only factions that could truely be said to be 'superior' in any real sense of the word, are as follows...
Iconian - Thought to be wiped out. Some suspect they were part of the Preservers.
Preservers - The source of Alpha Quadrant life, most advanced ever in the Quadrant. According to Vendetta, they were too slow to resist the Collective, and much of their technology now lies in the Borg databases.
Dominion - Effectively unlimited resources and a command structure that offers little in the way of politics gives them a huge advantage. Being in a different Quadrant from everyone else is their major limiter.
Borg Collective - Effectively unlimited resources, technology so advanced that it may as well be magic, and no fear, pain, grief, anger...it's like if a massive anthill revealed it had bazookas and decided that it was going to level LA. The only limiter on the Borg is self-imposed, and people should hope that nobody ever hurts them enough that they take it off (unless they wipe them out with that injury)...the rule of effeciency. The day they decide that effeciency ratios like the Klingons or Feds or Romulans are acceptable, at their technological level, is the day their weapon systems start to resemble solar flares.
The Q Continuum - Not quite omniscient, but very nearly omnipotent, the Q are the ultimate power...however, they don't care...not really.
The only others who could be said to be truely powerful are either isolationists who's entire race confines themselves to a single planet, or have gone the way of the hippie, and forsaken technology.
When it comes to war, each major faction has their own slant.
Federation - Achieve peace through endurance, and protection of civilian assets. In the shows, the feds frequently would (rather than launching attacks) endure the enemies aggression until frustration and economic stress brought them to the bargaining table...at which point the Feds display their greatest strength - Diplomacy. They bring about neutrality, and in some cases, new allies through this method. Even the Klingons had respect for Starfleet's ability to endure, though they scoffed at her offensive prowess. Without that option on the table, and with unlimited resources, 'endure until they give up' isn't an option for the feds. Fortunately, 'Endure until you can swamp them with Excel-II, Sovvies, and Defiants is an option.
Romulans - Projected Power is their watchwords. The mainstays of the Romulan fleet are massive, powerful ships...that cloak. This leaves the enemies of the Star Empire forever guessing where the next strike will come from, and even once the warbirds are visible, they are no pushovers. Worse for the enemy, they have no qualms about cloaking and running, then coming back again later...better prepared. They love to disguise their outposts as asteroids and moons (usually by building them inside of the things) and lay cloaked minefields in space. All's fair in war, for the Romulan Star Empire, ranging from spies sabotaging your stuff, and sending your critical information back to Romulus, to mining your trade lanes, to disguising themselves as your allies and attacking your civilian outposts to put you into a two-front war. The fewer Romulan deaths, the better, as well.
Klingons - War is Glorious. The vast majority of the Klingon people live in constant readiness for war. The Warrior Houses are unhappy unless there are battles to be won, and the Medical and Judicial Houses, along with the Scientific Houses, are unhappy while the Warriors are unhappy. With all aspects of society pro-war, the moment the fighting starts, the Klingon Empire goes into high-gear. Nobody except those like Duras' house expect any special perks except those they earn in battle. The laborers and scientists work round the clock producing new engines of destruction (or repairing old ones), the Medical Houses deploy throughout the fleet to get their Warrior brethren back into battle as swiftly as possible. Nearly everything and everyone in the Klingon empire is armed at all times, and eager to engage. Few Klingons are willing to retreat unless there is a very good reason to. 'We're going to die' is never a good reason to them, however. One is allowed to flee pointless failure, but to flee defeat or death is a coward's path. A Klingon commander, faced with the certain death of himself, ship, and crew, unless he retreats, is more likely to order all power (including lifesupport) diverted to the forward disruptor arrays, and the crew will cheer the attempt to take their enemy with them. They will die SINGING. And nothing, and I mean NOTHING enrages the Klingons more than their enemies using treachery as a weapon. Infiltration, to the Klingons, means a special-forces night assault, not spies.
The Dominion - Right to Rule. They believe (and the Gamma Quadrant stands as evidence) that the Founders are SUPPOSED to rule everything. Therefore, they are doing everyone a favor, by bringing everything under Dominion control. With the resources of a Quadrant behind them, and genetically engineered geniuses in support of the Founders, the Dominion has a technological edge over most opponents, and with their near-perfected medical technology (especially cloning) they can refill their ranks almost as fast as anybody could kill them. The aforementioned 'resources of a Quadrant' also allows them to produce ships in unprecedented rate and quantity, without sacrificing quality. This makes them a force to be feared...not because they excel at offense, or at defense...not because they are manipulative, brave, patient, or anything else of that sort. They have more to throw at you that they can replace without concern than you have in your entire empire...and they know it.
The Borg Collective - Millennia ago, the Borg were assimilating their neighbors. Nobody has truely stopped them yet. That says alot. Unemotional and relentless, the Borg are unconcerned with things that would cause other foes to falter, or even surrender. A single drone can bring about the inception or restoration of an entire ship or hub, provided the right resources. In this case, the resources are other sentient life forms. Like a technological plague, the Collective rolls over an area, leaving nothing behind except for two things. The Collective itself, and death. Dead worlds, debris, and the Assimilated. Fighting the Borg bring with it its own problems, as well. The more you fight them, the more they adapt to your methods. If they capture your weapons, the adaptation accelerates. They are obscenely advanced in almost all fields of technology, and the one thing other races can be thankful for with the Borg's outlook is that they are fixated on Effeciency. Due to this, much of the technology they have assimilated exists only in their vast databases, as it is too ineffecient for use, or too unstable. The Borg use only what resources are needed to accomplish the task at hand. No more. Unfortunately, unless you defeat a Borg incursion utterly, the rate at which you will see stepped up deployments becomes horrifying. The only thing saving most of the Delta quadrant from the Collective is...irrelevance. With nothing new to offer the Borg, and little in the way of resistance shown, instead of avoidance, the Borg simply ignore them until they present something new. That presentation is a dark day, as it brings the Collective upon them, and with near-universal application...they become one with it.
Every single faction in the Star Trek universe excels at something. Few are truely 'better' than any other. Even the Ferengi are capable of threatening greater empires than their own through their monolithic wealth. The ability to purchase enormous fleets is not to be underestimated. The only factions that could truely be said to be 'superior' in any real sense of the word, are as follows...
Iconian - Thought to be wiped out. Some suspect they were part of the Preservers.
Preservers - The source of Alpha Quadrant life, most advanced ever in the Quadrant. According to Vendetta, they were too slow to resist the Collective, and much of their technology now lies in the Borg databases.
Dominion - Effectively unlimited resources and a command structure that offers little in the way of politics gives them a huge advantage. Being in a different Quadrant from everyone else is their major limiter.
Borg Collective - Effectively unlimited resources, technology so advanced that it may as well be magic, and no fear, pain, grief, anger...it's like if a massive anthill revealed it had bazookas and decided that it was going to level LA. The only limiter on the Borg is self-imposed, and people should hope that nobody ever hurts them enough that they take it off (unless they wipe them out with that injury)...the rule of effeciency. The day they decide that effeciency ratios like the Klingons or Feds or Romulans are acceptable, at their technological level, is the day their weapon systems start to resemble solar flares.
The Q Continuum - Not quite omniscient, but very nearly omnipotent, the Q are the ultimate power...however, they don't care...not really.
The only others who could be said to be truely powerful are either isolationists who's entire race confines themselves to a single planet, or have gone the way of the hippie, and forsaken technology.
posted on September 21st, 2009, 10:50 pm
I completely aggree that the sovereigns should get some changes. I think It should be way more powerful and cost a lot more. And perhaps have a limit. It should be like the Romulan's Tavara. And also for Risner you should be able to get twice as many (or a certain number more) than you do for mayson.
posted on September 21st, 2009, 11:03 pm
The Tavara is powered by the Omega Particle itself.
posted on September 23rd, 2009, 2:35 pm
then why are the rommies so crazy to use the omega-particle in a ship that "could" be assimilated by the borg?
posted on September 23rd, 2009, 4:56 pm
Well, the lady in the ship says that the empire's fate rides on that ship. I think they're desperate.
posted on September 23rd, 2009, 5:07 pm
Without the Tavara even the Sona would have as good of a military! The Rommies should put some flt Ops steroids into their ships so that they could even compare to the Federation in strength.
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