TEching up? when, where, why?

posted on December 25th, 2012, 1:16 am

These are the questions going around in my head a lot lately. I like to play high tech, but in this game it seems impossible unless you can match production with you enemy while doing it (at which point you are winning anyway, so why not just build another yard and spam away). In my games so far I have never seen a fight where one of the 2 opponent opts for defensive play and teching up while on the same terms as his enemy, usually tech happens when one of the opponents secures more expansion then the enemy and is therefore winning. And I'm not talking about going sovies on 1 expansion while you enemy spams K'Vorts. Even a light tech up like akiras as risner or E2 as mayson can get punished pretty easily if the enemy knows what they are doing. Obviously that is impossible or I am doing it wrong. I'd like to think lather is the case. I need an explanation here on how to do it, because classic builds like warp-ins and/or double antares are getting boring fast (yes they work even at lower skill level, but still I'd like to think defiants/sovereign/D'Deridex etc. aren't just toys for big boys or ornaments).

posted on December 25th, 2012, 2:17 am

Based on replay observations, I would say that serious tech-ups are mostly seen in: team games; when doing so will basically win the game for you (in the 2011 Spring tournament finale a Borg player went Diamond with Nanites to counter their Klingon opponent's map dominance, and even with Negh'Vars the Klingon could not get close); or when you absolutely have to get some tech to counter a rabbit your opponent just pulled out of the hat.

Certainly for Feds in most 1v1s, it seems like the game is won and lost before there's much need to move from Chassis 1 and Warp-In.

[DefiantNX74205]

posted on December 25th, 2012, 5:20 am

Last edited by DefiantNX74205 on December 25th, 2012, 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

i like teching up but never get the chance very often in 2v2 or 3v3 but some times get to in 4v4 but not as often as i like to.
the best way i have found to do it is for mayson fed anyway is start off buliding 3-4 interpids then nova or akira then if you can afford large yard and maybe some e2 and remores if things are going well in the game if the game is not won i start on defiants and sovereigns.and if risner avatar avalons and phalanx are great too

posted on December 25th, 2012, 5:30 am

In a 1v1 game, if you rush tech you will lose the map to your opponent.
In a team game if you rush tech, you expose your team to being outnumbered in the early game.

My rules of thumb for teching up:
1. Never out of the gate.
2. Do so as soon as you can afford to without stopping ship production. Because the later game ships are more efficient and easier to keep alive. (For most races, double small yard is a good idea, but a triple yard is too much).
3. Do so even sooner if necessary to counter your opponent.
But for goodness sake, be aware of your opponents' ships and STOP building yourself into counters.

The idea upon launch should not be: what should I spam and when should i tech up. These things are too fluid. They depend on map size, team quality/strategy, opponent quality/strat...

posted on December 25th, 2012, 5:35 am

In a 1v1 game, if you rush tech you will lose the map to your opponent.
In a team game if you rush tech, you expose your team to being outnumbered in the early game.

My rules of thumb for teching up:
1. Never out of the gate.
2. Do so as soon as you can afford to without stopping ship production. Because the later game ships are more efficient and easier to keep alive. (For most races, double small yard is a good idea, but a triple yard is too much).
3. Do so even sooner if necessary to counter your opponent.
But for goodness sake, be aware of your opponents' ships and STOP building yourself into counters.

The idea upon launch should not be: what should I spam and when should i tech up. These things are too fluid. They depend on map size, team quality/strategy, opponent quality/strat...

thats what i was thinking.
and also dont spam tec up its a lot more fun to see some bigger ships in a game

posted on December 25th, 2012, 5:35 am

There are lots of tech ups players should be doing, but don't, largely because they aren't aware of timings or proper tactics or feel uncomfortable with stopping production. There's also the major problem of uneven player skill or lack of experience, which makes figuring out why someone lost that much more difficult. Main things to look out for:

1. If you plan to tech up, don't play defensively. That's entirely the wrong thing to do in the vast majority of cases, because you absolutely will not be able to stop your opponent from doing whatever he or she likes. Playing defensively assures that your opponent - who presumably is not teching up - can go wherever he or she likes on the map and smash you with more ships (which you sacrificed temporarily for the tech up). Rather, you should get used to keeping your opponent constantly moving, forced to follow you, forced to invest in defensive structures, while you buy time for your tech up.

2. Don't be afraid to stop production. There's no rule saying you have to be constantly producing AND afford to tech up.

3. Pay attention to critical tech progressions. If a Feddie is going Intrepid/Monsoon vs a Klingon going K'beajQ/K'Vort/Sang, there is NO reason either player shouldn't switch into Akira/Vor'cha. Both tech progressions are cheap, relatively fast, and give you enormous benefit. Vor'cha is a strong counter vs Monsoons/Intrepids, and is the reason so many Vor'cha rushes are seen in team games - where tech up is more lax. Akiras are likewise much more durable, and pre-counter Vor'cha. Taking extra damage from a K'Vort isn't enough to stop those beasties from dealing serious pain. In mirror matches, the enhanced durability alone for later tier ships is enough to make them more useful than the early tier stuff.

4. Don't neglect macromanagement and don't let start position number define the type of game. Many typically played 1v1 maps are poorly designed and cater to this 1 expansion, 1 main set of mining, usually with tritanium moons left as an after thought. That's fine for casual games, but won't allow you to improve your overall skill. If you cannot expand in multiple directions, battles become just about head-butting fleets into each other, or into a fortified expansion or main base. Similarly, most people see a 3 start position map, or a 4 start position map and think "that's a FFA map" or "that's a 2v2 map". There are many maps which work as 1v1 maps which have more than 2 start positions - explore the map pool and experiment.

5. "Know" when teching up is appropriate: don't tech into dumb dead-ends. Why would you want to tech from B-8's into S-2s if your opponent is building Scout Cubes? That shit gets you killed. Make sure you understand the role of the ship, and experiment if you don't. Don't just look at passives, but think about why you want to use a particular ship for a given purpose.

In general, work on tactics and multi-tasking in order to complement teching up - blobbing basic tier ships is easy to do and requires less tactical thinking, but generally needs more micromanagement.

Lastly, Fleet Operations doesn't have a large-enough community, or a match or league system which enforces that equal skilled players (who play very frequently) are playing against each other. Most of the times, it's quite easy to watch a 1v1 and see that players are poorly matched, or don't have enough experience with other strategies to know when to mix things up.

If you're looking for some real-time feedback Zweistein, just message me on Teamspeak and I'll watch your game and comment on it .

posted on December 25th, 2012, 6:56 am

Well Dom just beat me but... I would say a few things. In the next version many things will change, I think later game will be more easily accessible. However at the moment there is some truth in what you say, you do not see late game builds in many games. However that does depend on the race, some races more then others can more easily upgrade.

Certainly in games with multiple players on a team it is somewhat easier to tech up however, in any sort of game you cant expect to just tech up immediately. I would not say that teching up is not important in fleetops, rather it is a certain stage of the game that sometimes you dont get to because the game has already been decided. Often times the winner of the game is the player who can transition best to high tech who wins. Throughout all the replays Ive recorded, i've seen a common theme; the player who can protect his assests, while continually pressuring and expanding will win. You cant go into the game with a set strategy, rather you must react to your opponent, keep pressure on them, and gradually try to tech up and come out on top.

A few games with some high tech if you like:

http://guide.fleetops.net/video/play/469

http://guide.fleetops.net/video/play/534

posted on December 25th, 2012, 7:17 pm

Speaking of videos.. there would many more if a certain Ray320 would reactivate his Youtube account. just sayin'.

posted on December 25th, 2012, 8:06 pm

Cant reactivate it, unfortunately its gone, there were some good games too... Oh well look for some more in the future, I need a new mic and I need to get my machine set up to do it, but maybe ill get some out in the next few days or so...