Having problems handling Assimilator Rush strategy...

posted on August 9th, 2010, 2:51 pm

I'm not sure if this is because I'm just slow-building, or if I'm getting out-micro'ed...but maybe someone else can benefit from my pain. 

I played a set of 5 games Saturday & Sunday against a human Borg opponent with me switching between Klingon & Dominion, and got handily defeated every time by the Assimilator Rush strategy.  The key factor in all of the losses appear to be two things:

First, I lost many small-crew ships to Auto-Assims.  Most of my casualties were early-game B'rels, K'vorts, Bugs, and Bombers.  I'm really confused by the B'rel losses, because in one game I fielded 7 of them early against an Assim, and got it down to about 30% hull, but lost 5 in the process.

Second, after the initial loss of ships, the Assimilators would roll-up into either my Expansion or Primary mining, and assimilate & decom my Mining base (not the miners). 

One of the last games we played, I went Dominion, and used some early S-2's (along with bugs and bombers for support), which seemed to work better...but when I tried to go up to Large Yard, the Borg rolled into my Primary base with a Sphere and 3 Assims....game over. 

However...in all the games, I never counted a single Assimilator kill on my part.  I got really close a few times, but couldn't finish the deal by the time a second Assimilator entered the fray (forcing me to retreat and regroup).  It was probably due to the fact that I stuck-in the battle longer than I probably should have, but never could get the kill.

I'm not really sure what I'm doing wrong, or is this Assimilator Rush strategy just that strong?

posted on August 9th, 2010, 3:08 pm

It could be that maybe the person mixes his Assim. When going against Auto assim you need to understand that Special ability granting modules make the ship receive reduced damage from specials. Torp modules reduce torpedo damage. And Beam modules reduce beam damage. You can often tell if they have a torp module by the passives it has.

Many when Assimilate prefer the 2 Assim + 1 Torpedo Assimilator since it has the best overall strength. The ability to quickly drain crew and also occasionally deal direct hull damage. However the two versions of the tank Assim (2 Assim + 1 Regen or 2 Torp + 1 Regen) can really be devastating to fleets and stations.

Over all I think it is a strong strategy. Even stronger when you pair these with any of the following spheres:
- Anti-Spam Sphere (3 Beam, 1 Regen; the 3 beam makes it able to attack up to 3 targets. While the regen helps increase health regeneration rate to help with tanking and fighting against Early-Mid game ships because of it having increased health gain speed to lengthen its life against longer shootings.)
- Tank Sphere (1 Torp, 3 Regen; This adds a torpedo allowing it to deal damage through both beam and torpedoes. This is especially devastating against later game ships and stations as the torpedoes fairly well maintain their damage through the levels. The regen modules makes them able to take more damage and repair faster thereby lasting longer in the field)

I'm sure the person you fought against must have very well mixed these together as a good mix of these vessels can bulldozer enemies like as if nothing. These are often used until they can get their pairs of cubes and diamonds out.

posted on August 9th, 2010, 3:12 pm

firstly, dont field brels or kvorts against assims. make kbq and susa/veq

secondly, just before they finish decrewing a ship, start beaming to it with 1 other ship. when crew hits 0 your ship will be beaming and they wont. meaning it will remain yours even if they start beaming with 1 ship. if they have 2 ships, beam with 2 of yours etc.

assims with mostly auto assim modules will have weak weapons, too weak to worry about losing ships without shields. assims are also so slow that they wont stand a chance of catching a running ship. plus u can even keep a ship cloaked and beam from it.

against only assims u should make only S-2 as they counter them rather well. their special is as always good.

if they are retreating then you should always kill them, as assims are sloooooooooooow.

assims are more scary if they have no auto assim as they then most likely have a beam which wont miss.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on August 9th, 2010, 3:54 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on August 9th, 2010, 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'd recommend having a bug or two to go with the S-2, that way you can make absolutely sure the Assim doesn't escape by ramming it (but be careful to keep the Bug from being assimilated.)
Bomber spam is another option, even tho they take more damage from Assims, they deal high damage form their torps and hav a nice long range to work with. The increased damage from Assims shouldn't be too much of a problem if they are Assimilating Assims. The special weapon on bombers is also nice for killing that 3% hull Assim that is barely getting away.

For Klingons I think Sus'a is absolute best field yard vessel for Assims, but you should go into the Battle yard somewhat early to get Sang and Qaw'Duj (polaron field will really screw the Borg over, level 1 ability renders it immune to special weapon effects for 30 seconds, not sure if that prevents crew loss tho. ) Vor'cha are an option if you get their special as 5 of them almost assures a broken subsystem on the Assims and the weakness to long range isn't very much (only 10% less damage from ur Vor'chas), high crew and 30 defense also make Vor'cha great for managing to get away to repair and fight again.
EDIT:Just read the Guide and noticed something about Qaw'Duj level 1 special.

posted on August 9th, 2010, 3:59 pm

firstly, dont field brels or kvorts against assims. make kbq and susa/veq

In the two Martok games, I tried fielding KBQ's and SuSa's after the fact, and seemed to do better....but it was too late by then.  In the single game I played with TaQ'roja I didn't get a single Veq on the field, because the Assimilator rolled into my expansion and assimilated my mining stations.

So the bottom line with Klings V Borg...skip the Bird of Prey yard extension?

assims with mostly auto assim modules will have weak weapons, too weak to worry about losing ships without shields.
------
assims are more scary if they have no auto assim as they then most likely have a beam which wont miss.

When going against Auto assim you need to understand that Special ability granting modules make the ship receive reduced damage from specials. Torp modules reduce torpedo damage. And Beam modules reduce beam damage. You can often tell if they have a torp module by the passives it has.

Many when Assimilate prefer the 2 Assim + 1 Torpedo Assimilator since it has the best overall strength. The ability to quickly drain crew and also occasionally deal direct hull damage. However the two versions of the tank Assim (2 Assim + 1 Regen or 2 Torp + 1 Regen) can really be devastating to fleets and stations.

I think these are what I was facing, they definitely were NOT weak.  I'm still having problems identifying the different Borg variants in-game from the tool-tips (especially in-combat), mostly because I just don't have the time to ID them once I spot them.

---hmmm>  Note to self: Guide Idea.

against only assims u should make only S-2 as they counter them rather well. their special is as always good.

Should I just skip Bugs & Bombers to go straight to them?

It could be that maybe the person mixes his Assim.
----
I'm sure the person you fought against must have very well mixed these together as a good mix of these vessels can bulldozer enemies like as if nothing. These are often used until they can get their pairs of cubes and diamonds out.

The person was beat2k10, if that helps.  Sunday we were playing "LAN Game" on Tunngle, with a few others.  I was basically doing a Duel with beat, because the other people playing are usually just getting their initial yards and mining set-up by the time we were fighting each other.

[Anonymous]

posted on August 9th, 2010, 4:04 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on August 9th, 2010, 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

For Klingons I think Sus'a is absolute best field yard vessel for Assims, but you should go into the Battle yard somewhat early to get Sang and Qaw'Duj (polaron field will really screw the Borg over, level 1 ability renders it immune to special weapon effects for 30 seconds, not sure if that prevents crew loss tho. ) Vor'cha are an option if you get their special as 5 of them almost assures a broken subsystem on the Assims and the weakness to long range isn't very much (only 10% less damage from ur Vor'chas), high crew and 30 defense also make Vor'cha great for managing to get away to repair and fight again.
EDIT:Just read the Guide and noticed something about Qaw'Duj level 1 special.

I got the Battle yard up in the second game, and had 5 Vor'chas.....but without their special, because I was trying to tech-up to Vutpa’ Class. 

-edit-  I completely passed-over the Sang and Qaw'Duj....I'll have to give them a try next time.

posted on August 9th, 2010, 4:16 pm

Skipping BoP extension entirely might be a bad idea, B'rels are completely immune to subsytem disabling effects from Dodecahedrons. Build it to have more units (K'Vorts may not do much damage but every little bit helps.) If you make two field yards then skipping BoP extension would be a good idea.

Assimilating Assims are indeed weak, especially if they lack a regen module. Hit 'em hard with all your ships and they will die pretty fast. Combat Assims are the real worry as they will tear thru your low-defense ships while taking reduced damage.

Some people still think Puretech can't afford to build two prototypes early on (Puretech can as of 3.1.3 due to the cutting in half of the build costs, building two small yard protos as Puretech now is like building one in 3.1.2), really the problem now is the long proto build times. Diversifying your fleet is also a very good idea as Dominion, since Dominion's low defense makes it very sensitive to counters (Scubes will fry your S2 very fast.) If facing Combat Assims do not use Bombers, as they will get torn apart and do less damage due to torp reduction, S2 with several Bugs will do well.

I got the Battle yard up in the second game, and had 5 Vor'chas.....but without their special, because I was trying to tech-up to Vutpa’ Class. 

-edit-  I completely passed-over the Sang and Qaw'Duj....I'll have to give them a try next time.

Vutpa is not such a great idea because of the 2 yards and 2 research stations needed to get it, as well it takes 3 separate research items from one research station to get the special and refit's special (and the Refit special is useless except against cloaked units.) Vor'cha special is far more worth it against Borg. Vutpa also has all around lower stats than Vor'cha.

[Anonymous]

posted on August 9th, 2010, 4:33 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on August 9th, 2010, 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Skipping BoP extension entirely might be a bad idea, B'rels are completely immune to subsytem disabling effects from Dodecahedrons.

I don't think I faced a single Dodec in any of the games.   Just three Assims & Spheres (and whatever else he captured in-game).

In the first game I rushed a fleet of 6 B'rels against the expansion Di and primary Tri on Star Traffic (lower left).  I was able to get the Expansion Di miner down to about 30% before the first Assimilator showed-up.  Within a matter of about a minute, I lost 4 ships to the Assimilator, with the other two retreating heavily damaged because I was using them to beam & retake the ones I was losing.   

Vutpa is not such a great idea because of the 2 yards and 2 research stations needed to get it, as well it takes 3 separate research items from one research station to get the special and refit's special (and the Refit special is useless except against cloaked units.) Vor'cha special is far more worth it against Borg. Vutpa also has all around lower stats than Vor'cha.

So, do you happen to know why the Vutpa is listed as one of the few Klingon counters to the Assimilators, if Vor'chas work better?  Klingon Unit Analysis - The Hitchhiker's Guide to Fleet Operations

-edit-

Some people still think Puretech can't afford to build two prototypes early on (Puretech can as of 3.1.3 due to the cutting in half of the build costs, building two small yard protos as Puretech now is like building one in 3.1.2), really the problem now is the long proto build times. Diversifying your fleet is also a very good idea as Dominion, since Dominion's low defense makes it very sensitive to counters (Scubes will fry your S2 very fast.) If facing Combat Assims do not use Bombers, as they will get torn apart and do less damage due to torp reduction, S2 with several Bugs will do well.

I have been avoiding Puretech, because of the War Frigate prototype bug at the moment.  I didn't want to worry about investing in a prototype that I couldn't build (since I could've used them on the enemy Romulan ally).

posted on August 9th, 2010, 5:17 pm

against borg b8 is pointless as its pulse armed mainly.

in general, play breen and make bombers with s2 then breen cruisers. breen cruisers dont miss. then later u can get the awesome breen battleship. breen avatar gives boost to bomber.

if facing only assims then definitely make as many s2 as u can, and only s2. as they do 50% extra damage against assims. the bomber may be nice, but it wont help as much as more s2. do ketracel white as well, always do the white. the assim is so slow u wont even need to ram it.

for klinks there is plenty of choice. double yard susas is still possible, but not as good as before.

i would play martok and go fast sangs susas and qawduj.

as taqroja u can go fast kbq and veq. veq special will stop retreats. kbq special can overwhelm that last 5% of hull. definitely dont build bop or vutpas. pulses do reduced damage to large (assim +) borg ships.

if u want to go for an earlier battle yard u can skip the veq, as the chargh is much more useful, it will hold ships still. then make some sangs and qawduj etc. vorchas too, vorchas are rarely bad, plus their special is also useful, just like qawduj.

if u are rom, build levals.

if u are feds build anything u like and u will win lol.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on August 9th, 2010, 5:26 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on August 9th, 2010, 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Vutpa countering thing is weird, I think Dominus means that a Vutpa will do more damage to an Assim than an Assim will do to a Vutpa. But Polaron Torps will more than make up for Vor'cha doing less damage with its regular weapons.

EDIT:Vutpa passive makes torpedos miss it a lot, that may be why the table says it counters stuff. Assimilator default weapon is a torpedo, and torp modules are great for reducing damage form Vutpa photon racks, so maybe with just regular weapons the Vutpa would be a lot better.

posted on August 9th, 2010, 5:32 pm

vutpas will excel against auto assim assims.

their torp will miss a lot (64% of the time lol)

and vutpa refit has higher crew. and they can beam with shields up to recrew your vessels lol.

but vutpa will fail against other borg ships. so dont spam them.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on August 9th, 2010, 5:54 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on August 9th, 2010, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

if u are feds build anything u like and u will win lol.

Actually early warpin (SFC finished building just before the third Intrepid is finished) is the best strat against Assims as double yarding will leave you with low-crew vessels (strange tho since Voyager had about 140 crew in season 1 and 150 in season 7, with about 30+ of them Maquis and a dozen or so of the original crew died while taken to the Delta Quadrant, yet FO only gives an Intrepid 85 crew) while even an Excelsior can get away before it is assimed. Combat assims do better vs. Warpin but they still get flattened.

posted on August 9th, 2010, 8:47 pm

Actually early warpin (SFC finished building just before the third Intrepid is finished) is the best strat against Assims as double yarding will leave you with low-crew vessels (strange tho since Voyager had about 140 crew in season 1 and 150 in season 7, with about 30+ of them Maquis and a dozen or so of the original crew died while taken to the Delta Quadrant, yet FO only gives an Intrepid 85 crew) while even an Excelsior can get away before it is assimed. Combat assims do better vs. Warpin but they still get flattened.

i never said warpin wasnt the strongest strategy. i said that feds can just do any strat and win. intrep spam = win, fast warpin = win, fast e2 = win etc

posted on August 9th, 2010, 9:07 pm

is true.^^ you can even saber span for the first half of the game and win

though the last two work better.

posted on August 9th, 2010, 9:14 pm

Haha, I got also crushed by beats assimilators two times and wanted to start a topic about it  :D. I tried it with Romulans, too.
It`s a very hard strategy, and I don`t follow the opinion, that battle assimilators are stronger than assim Assimilators. While the first are just cheap and slow spheres(or expensive and slow adaptors... sth in between the two), the latter are nasty things ignoring shields and bringing your fleet on the side of the enemy. It is not a problem of your ships getting destroyed, you can easily fly around beaming all the time, cause they won`t hit or damage a lot. However, if there are 3Assimilators in quite a short time, you will lose, they just assimilate everything. You can`t even send your ships to the yard because of long range Assims against mostly short range for Klingons(Dom is a bit different), and then there can also be incubation centres to assimilate your ships even faster. You can`t effectively raid Borgminers early on to prevent the Borg from building those. Especially early game(and I really  saw them early game) you can`t do much, Klingon and Dominion ships have low crews.
In team games the strategy is not that tough, assimilators are often too slow to help in fleet battles, but 1v1 it is really hard and the reason, why beat2k got to the elimination round in the tournament  :thumbsup:.
So, I'm very interested in reading effective strategies against it.