Subspace - let's create physics

[mimesot]

posted on May 24th, 2009, 2:16 pm

Last edited by mimesot on May 24th, 2009, 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hi everybody!

Inspired by my discussion with sheva about a (not necessary realistic but) principle based shield model, the need to have a principle based subspace-theory arised. We all know about the properties of subspace - enchanced specfolding, a higher lightspeed, mass-reduction and so on... - but we have no idea about the principles. As there can be found no realy theory about subspace on these sources:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Subspace#Subspace_fields
http://www.stdimension.org/Subspace/subspace.htm

I decided, that we should create a conclusive subspace theory, that provides ar least some of the known subspace-features. (note: Subspace itself was invented to avoid the incompatibilities of FTL with the theory of relativity, so it is as rediculous as the heisenberg condensator. But in contrast to the compensator we have a slight chance to rise it from eternalembarrassment.) I hope everyone to join in. Please no redundand listung of properties in this thread. Thanks!

To get things started a few questions:

Subspace is a dimension, it has a depth. This depth is the parameter that determines your position along the subspace axis, as x,y,z are the parameters that determine your position in local space, or t the progress in time. Right? I know, that i can move through x,y,z by feet, that i travel time at constant rate inevitably, but how can I change my position along the subspace axis?

Gravity can be described by spacetime-distortion, electromagnetic fields cannot. How can i imagine subspece fields? Are they a distortion of subspace of can they discriebed by a classsical field-theory only?

Gravity fields are created by mass, electric fields by charge, nuclear forces (fields of colour and flavour) by elemental particles like quarks, magnetic fields by moving current, gravitational waves by accelerating masses. Alltogether I can create a field by concentrating or moving matter with a certain property. But what do I move or concentrate to create a subspace field?

I'm eager to see your suggestions!

PS: original context, see //www.fleetops.net/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,3/topic,5016.msg85812/#msg85812

posted on May 24th, 2009, 5:51 pm

Well, i see it so:

Subspace is a destorted field that are also used by wormholes. Worholes are in my eyes collapsed black holes with only a 'link' left.

The theroy goes at the following:

We begin to create a black hole with a critical mass, like a high-mass-sun. After supernova it may collapse and make a scratch in the space. Steven Hawkings defined a black hole as the following:
The singularity is an unlimited distortion of space. When you think one step above, it is a rift.

This rift is nothing more than a anti-pole outside the linearity of space. When you ever heard of signal-processing, you can re-buil it.

You have a circle and on this circle you place poles and zero-point. With this points set, you can build a filter, like a high-pass filter, or a low-pass filter or a band-pass-filter.

If you place a zero-point inside the circle everything is fine. Even if you place it OUTSIDE the circle, nothing really will happen. BUT when you place a pole outside the circle, the system is getting instable. The signal you have will get to a distordet mass of peaks without any relationship thorugh each other. The whole thing is a destruction key to every signal now.

I think, a black hole is exactly this. A pole outside the ring that will distort the space. But the space is a more or less linear system. You put in energy into space and it will stay there forever. It may chance its face, but we leaned in physics, that there is nothing like a perpetuum mobile.

Well, the black hole is negleting this theory. The mass is being absobed and only a small part of its energy comes out again through ray. The rest is... gone.

Where is it gone? Now we are in subspace. Subspace is the region beyond the borders of the 'ring' I told you before. When you are able to touch it, you can make incredible things with it.
(I like to insert a link, but I only know the german keywords)

Well, lets say, we are able to see what is beyond the border, than we can, if we you complex values, play with it. To exactly say what is possible, you have to study signal processing and the experimental physics and try to link it together :-/

The only thing I can imagine now, is that you are able to 'filter' the subspace in order to compress it. You put in an enormus amount of energy and are now able to counter even 'over-lightspeed' weapons, because there is no need of time in this field. Only you capacitors are you limiters.

[mimesot]

posted on May 24th, 2009, 6:12 pm

Last edited by mimesot on May 24th, 2009, 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This rift is nothing more than a anti-pole outside the linearity of space. When you ever heard of signal-processing, you can re-buil it.

You have a circle and on this circle you place poles and zero-point. With this points set, you can build a filter, like a high-pass filter, or a low-pass filter or a band-pass-filter.

If you place a zero-point inside the circle everything is fine. Even if you place it OUTSIDE the circle, nothing really will happen. BUT when you place a pole outside the circle, the system is getting instable. The signal you have will get to a distordet mass of peaks without any relationship thorugh each other. The whole thing is a destruction key to every signal now.

I have to admit, I don't get it. I know how to build a band-filter, but I don't understand the terms 're-build', 'circle', 'poles, 'zero points' i context with distortion of space. Can you discribe it a little further? Or can you attatch some graphics for us?

You put in energy into space and it will stay there forever. It may chance its face, but we leaned in physics, that there is nothing like a perpetuum mobile.

Well, the black hole is negleting this theory. The mass is being absobed and only a small part of its energy comes out again through ray. The rest is... gone.

Well, it is not really gone. It's stuck in time in the imediate vicinity of the event horizon.

(I like to insert a link, but I only know the german keywords)

Well, lets say, we are able to see what is beyond the border, than we can, if we you complex values, play with it. To exactly say what is possible, you have to study signal processing and the experimental physics and try to link it together :-/

Ti insert a link just open a rectangular bracket, type "url", close it, write the adress, new bracket, slash, "url", close bracket. That's it.

Just tell us about the signal processing processes you would suggest. Some may understand the complex math and the others will look away for tha time *gg*.

PS: Do you intend, that one could do some fourier transform on a gravitation wave spectrum, to create a peak, that is equal to a pole? And i the borders of that pole we could stor something. (But not ships, because they'd get rippd by tidal forces)

posted on May 24th, 2009, 6:34 pm

Keyword-link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signal_processing#Time_and_space_domains


A (german) example is written on this page:
http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/88816

A picture for my way of explanation:


When you look on the picture and link all poles and zero pints together, you get a circle. When go go along the circle, the signal is transformed.

The same goes with the space. Thats my theory.

posted on May 24th, 2009, 6:44 pm

So we locally create space distortions (constant or variable ? ) and their interaction ( ? ok ? ), which we can controll too, will form a pole (the blue hole on cour graphics). Did I get it now?

But this graphic is in Imaginary and Real, and the imaginary partitions refer to phase shift ... so i unfortunatly don't understand it yet. Please help me further.

And where is the connection to subspace?

[Sheva]

posted on May 24th, 2009, 7:05 pm

Last edited by Sheva on May 24th, 2009, 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'll try it:

Mass is a distortion in space and fucntions like a zero-point. A small amount of mass wont make a zero point, but it will decrease the space at this point. Now you know what will happen. Like the phase is going to be modified, we have the time, that is modified.

You cant make the time travel faster (relative) but you can manage to make it 'slower'. From you point of view, when you are inside this shift, everything will go faster, but you think that YOU are normal.

Same thing goes for the event horizont.
When you are inside it, the time stops. The energy is hidden inside. Now look on the event horizont. What exactly IS that thing?

It is, like the circle drawn the all the space OUT of the circle. So you must inverse the view. The space we have is inside the circle and the event horizont will begin outside the circle. Now you have it.

The critical mass will make collapse the space to form a singularity. BUT the space is a linear system. So... what will the space do? Right, it will try to reach the equilibrium. In order to make that when you have an unlimited amount of mass at a point, that is the same like an unlimited amount of energy, this situation will shift space itself to a new condition that is able to hold the enormus energy. It must be something that is able to hold a unlimited amount of energy with not having a mass itself. Now we have subspace. A space without having time as a variant, only mass/energy.

Subspace is a space where time dont exists and everything is defined via energy/condition.

This is possible, because you can explain for example multiple dimensions with only one by altering its conditions over the time. This technology is already used in signal processing in your every day life, for example digital/analog converters. They work with 1 bit quantisizers (but you CD got 16 bit) but with a sampling frequency of some megahertz. So the bit itself get transformed.

Similar to you cellphone:
You work there with a single sinusoid and only the phase is shifted a few thousend times per second. In the end, you get a full fledged signal out of it.

Same goes with the dimension. You alter it to 'simulate' a new. The process of subspace is the exact negative of this process. In order to build the 'normal' space, you build up a subspace and let alter it.
Instead of gaining energy you can enclose it, so that the black hole is 'stable'... stable means, it wont cut down the physics.

(edit - german

Stell dir den Raum wie eine flache Ebene vor. Nullstellen sind wie Singularitäten. Sie verzerren den Raum bis er 'bricht'. Die Definition eine Signularität ist folgende:
Unendliche Krümmung des Raumes.

Das gleiche ist eine Nullstelle. Sie krümmt die gedankliche ebene unendlich tief. Es gibt aber kein 'unendlich tief' für den Raum, da er existent sein muss, damit die Linearität erhalten bleibt.
Denn es gibt kein Perpetuum mobile. Das ist eine Linearitätsbedingung.

Nun, wenn wir aber einen Zustand haben, der 'Energie' einschließt, dann müssen wir, damit die Physik erhalten bleibt, diesen Zustand beschreiben können, und zwar linear. Die Energie kann schließlich nicht 'weg' sein. Sie muss irgendwo hin, und das ist der subraum.

Soweit hoffentlich verständlich.

Pol und Nullstellen beschreiben sozusagen die Verlaufseigenschaften eines Systems. Im Raum gibt es NUR Nullstellen. Also stellen, die die wege verlängern und das Licht krümmen, die Zeit dadurch langsamer verlaufen lassen und zu solchen Dingen wie Sternensysteme führen und die Planeten auf ihren Bahnen halten. Kurz: Gravitation.

Polstellen wären so etwas wie 'Anti-Gravitations-Punkte. Bisher gibt es nur ein element, welches solch einen Effekt hat, und das ist die dunkle Materie. Materie, die den Raum nicht nach unten krümmt, sondern nach oben zieht. Das ist aber nur am Rande. Wichtig beim Subraum ist, dass dieser eine Gegenkraft zur absoluten Nullstelle darstellt. Zu jeder Kraft muss eine Gegenkraft existieren, ansonsten gibt es keine Wirkung. Wir haben aber eine wirkung. Eine wirkung die so mächtig ist, dass sie ganze Galaxien formen kann und das Bild dieser formt. Wie zum Beispiel die Milchstraße. Im Zentrum existiert ein Monster von schwarzem Loch.
Diese 'fette Nullstelle' ist leider nicht-linear. Wir brauchen also eine Erweiterung des Raumes an sich, um das System wieder linear zu machen. Den sogenannten Subraum. Eine Ebene oder Dimension, in der Zeit irrelevant ist. Sie MUSS irrelevant sein, ansonsten geht die Formel der Gegenkraft nicht auf. )

[mimesot]

posted on May 24th, 2009, 7:28 pm

Last edited by mimesot on May 24th, 2009, 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zero-point, nullstellen ... you probably mean poles do you? in a flat geometry of space, almost everything is a nullstelle.

Points of strong anti-gravitation could be poles too. For an observer in a black hole it may look as there is a gravitational pressure from the outside.

Sowly i get, that your descriotions of soße are a little bit odd.

Pol und Nullstellen beschreiben sozusagen die Verlaufseigenschaften eines Systems. Im Raum gibt es NUR Nullstellen. Also stellen, die die wege verlängern und das Licht krümmen, die Zeit dadurch langsamer verlaufen lassen und zu solchen Dingen wie Sternensysteme führen und die Planeten auf ihren Bahnen halten. Kurz: Gravitation.

Well one could imagine gravitation as a sink, whose stepness is equal to the gravitaional force. Mass and energy density form the geometry of the sink. We cannot tell where the zero-point is, because the whole system is gauge invariant (du darfst es eichen wie du willst, wo das null-level ist ist von der physik nicht vorggeben). Some geometries consist of a pole, normally (but not necessary, see hypothetical anti gravitation) in the same direction as the usual mass-distortios.

posted on May 24th, 2009, 7:33 pm

Flat space in no "Nullstelle", it is simply flat space. It gets distorted by mass -zero-point.

Inside of a black hole (anyone willing to do?) you see the world, as if you are on a pole, thats correct. And you also see the universe to be blank in an instant, because one second there is like 100.000.000.000.000 ^1000000 ^100000 ... yerrs in real space. You see the end of the universe so to say. But do not worry, you would need overlight-speed or unlimited amount of energy to get inside. 

[mimesot]

posted on May 24th, 2009, 7:45 pm

Last edited by mimesot on May 25th, 2009, 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nearly infinite time is enough said, as black holes do vaopurize in 10exp63 years only. *gg*

Something else:

Polstellen wären so etwas wie 'Anti-Gravitations-Punkte. Bisher gibt es nur ein element, welches solch einen Effekt hat, und das ist die dunkle Materie. Materie, die den Raum nicht nach unten krümmt, sondern nach oben zieht. Das ist aber nur am Rande. Wichtig beim Subraum ist, dass dieser eine Gegenkraft zur absoluten Nullstelle darstellt. Zu jeder Kraft muss eine Gegenkraft existieren, ansonsten gibt es keine Wirkung. Wir haben aber eine wirkung. Eine wirkung die so mächtig ist, dass sie ganze Galaxien formen kann und das Bild dieser formt. Wie zum Beispiel die Milchstraße. Im Zentrum existiert ein Monster von schwarzem Loch.
Diese 'fette Nullstelle' ist leider nicht-linear. Wir brauchen also eine Erweiterung des Raumes an sich, um das System wieder linear zu machen. Den sogenannten Subraum. Eine Ebene oder Dimension, in der Zeit irrelevant ist. Sie MUSS irrelevant sein, ansonsten geht die Formel der Gegenkraft nicht auf. )

Well the term "nach oben zieht" is, when you take it precisly little bit missleading. Mass shapes concave inside the schwarzschildradius, convex outside, and anti-mass the opposite way. The schwarzschildradius for single particles is extremly small, so we could say there is only the outside effect of concave distortion. Everyone keep in mind that the relevant effects are curvature, not hight of a  map. And it is dark energy, what is supposet to do negative distortion to space. Dark metter in contrast is just invisible mass, not lit, thus not observable.

Further, the central back hole in the milkyway is not a necessary component for forming a galaxy. The main provider for the galaxies structure is possibly the WIMPS, dark matter, or whatever has mass and is easy to disstribute all over and around the galaxy. Reason is, that a cantral mas only would cause the arms of tha galaxy to wind up qite quickly, which i not the galaxies behaviour we oberye today.

I appreciate the idea to propose anadditional dimension to explain any violation of some parameter like mass, energy or whatever, some kinda 'gegenkraft' counter-force. It is by far the best reason for a proposition i've ever heard!

But the non-linearity of a balck holes geometry does not violate any continuity-eqations. Nothing get's lost in black holes, as far as I know, so what do we need the time-independent extra-dimesion?

posted on May 26th, 2009, 4:51 pm

For all who can speak german. I posted that thread in another forum too. Let's see if we get useful answers there too.

http://www.scifi-forum.de/science-fiction/star-trek-allgemein/st-technik/56670-subspace-sucht-physik-srt-nachfolger.html

posted on May 26th, 2009, 5:40 pm

ihhh technobabble   

[mimesot]

posted on May 26th, 2009, 5:43 pm

Last edited by mimesot on May 26th, 2009, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Technobabble is restricted in here!!!!!!!!!!!! Just physics/math/logic, technobabble would get along with these. Never callthis technobabble!  :fish:

posted on May 26th, 2009, 6:05 pm

aye, geek and german don't seem to mix in the same post well.  It gets a little confusing, but I get the gist. Just to clarify is this for warp travel, or the sub space used in Star gate, or are we talkin in reality here? 

For ST  it is the space that is moving, not the ship

For SG  It would be more like the way the xyndi traveled.  A subspace conduit much like a wormhole or plane between realities that bends space itself.

In reality there are already complex theories to explain the moving space way of warp travel.  However there are always possibilities of the existence of conduits in between realities.

posted on May 26th, 2009, 7:28 pm

The exact meaning of the term subspace in StarTrek is not common for most ST-fans. Some speak of the spave that travells with the ship at warp speed, some say it is an underlying sheet beyound our einstein universe, some say it is like the ocean, and we are in the oceans surface.

In this thread, as my other scientfic threads are aiming for a realy conclusive explanation for subspace and so on. I want to push reality further towards a star trek universe and try to get the best out of it wthout breaking laws of physics in the proven range. And yes, it's geek stuff, nut anyone with a brain can join in.

posted on May 26th, 2009, 10:18 pm

alright, so in star trek they have stated that you can only move in one direction.  you cant turn while in warp, so I would make the conclusion that it is more like folding space then an underlying sheet.  Anyone else concur?