star trek, the undiscovered country question
What's your favourite episode? How is romulan ale brewed? - Star Trek in general :-)
posted on February 20th, 2014, 12:54 am
saw this the other day and in it the klingons had 50 years left before the empire collapsed,
did they ever explain why it didn't? the next generation was already on the air when the film came out so was it shoehorned into an episode since it wasn't at the beginning of tng, then decided to make a movie out of it (at least that i can remember)
anybody know?
did they ever explain why it didn't? the next generation was already on the air when the film came out so was it shoehorned into an episode since it wasn't at the beginning of tng, then decided to make a movie out of it (at least that i can remember)
anybody know?
posted on February 20th, 2014, 2:18 am
Well the entire plot of the Klingons only having 50 years because their moon blew up was a bit odd in the first place, but regardless you could make the assumption that the federation intervened and gave the Klingons economic aid to help them recover, and helping create the alliance that now exists between the 2 factions.
posted on February 20th, 2014, 9:02 am
Equinox1701e wrote:Well the entire plot of the Klingons only having 50 years because their moon blew up was a bit odd in the first place, but regardless you could make the assumption that the federation intervened and gave the Klingons economic aid to help them recover, and helping create the alliance that now exists between the 2 factions.
exactly, they way i've always understood it, is that the huge economic suffering caused by losing praxis is what made the klingons open to the idea of peace in the first place.
ma says:
Praxis' decimation resulted in a deadly pollution of Qo'noS' ozone, threatening the depletion of their oxygen within approximately fifty Earth years.
i'd never heard about that ozone stuff before. i'd always just assumed that the empire was in trouble because praxis was a central part of the empire's economy.
either way, the federation would likely have helped the klingons after the treaty signed at khitomer at the end of the movie. i'm presuming this aid only lasted a few decades, because by 2344, when the battle of narendra III happened, the alliance between the feds and klingons was already in the balance, and the ent-c's courageous act was necessary to solidify the alliance. in the alternate reality in Yesterday's Enterprise, the klingons were recovered enough by TNG era to be defeating the feds in a war (wonder where the organians went).
the feds have a habit of helping former enemies, they did it for the cardassians in ds9 as well.
posted on February 20th, 2014, 1:49 pm
Myles wrote:ma says:Praxis' decimation resulted in a deadly pollution of Qo'noS' ozone, threatening the depletion of their oxygen within approximately fifty Earth years.
i'd never heard about that ozone stuff before. i'd always just assumed that the empire was in trouble because praxis was a central part of the empire's economy.
That is what dialogue and implications in the movie lead everyone to believe. Obviously, it was just shoddy writing in that they needed to create some greater stakes for the plot.
Memory Alpha, like other such sources, seems to extrapolate on the known facts to solve such dilemmas from time to time. I don't know if MA does it as much, but sometimes they use secondary material from novels and such to pad articles. Was that the case here?
posted on February 20th, 2014, 2:30 pm
Its not strictly "canon" but, if you look at depictions of Qo'NoS in Klingon Academy, Starfleet Command etc, it's a blue-green M Class Planet. Look at it's depictions in TNG, DS9, Star Trek Armada etc, it's a dusty brown H Class world. So, something seriously ick occurred to mangle it's ecosystem.
Also, the line was "The Klingon Empire has roughly 50 years of life left in her" (I believe). The whole story was intended to parallel the fall of the Soviet Union. Praxis being Chernobyl of course. Now, the Soviet Union did indeed fall, but the people of it's successor states still exist, the actual land itself exists. I believe what the line was meant to convey was that the current political climate, the regime currently ruling the Klingon Empire, could not survive the catastrophe.
And if you look at it, it didn't. Alliance was almost forced upon the Klingon Empire. In the later series, hardly any Klingon you see actually likes it, it's sort of a grudging acceptance. Just about the only leader that embraces it is Martok. Gowron was very much using the Federation for his own ends, and even K'mpec wasn't exactly thrilled about the alliance. However, they HAVE to accept it, as without the Federation, their homeworld would be fallow (clearly the Federation did something, not sure what, to halt the destruction of the ecosystem, leaving it habitable if rough)
Also, the line was "The Klingon Empire has roughly 50 years of life left in her" (I believe). The whole story was intended to parallel the fall of the Soviet Union. Praxis being Chernobyl of course. Now, the Soviet Union did indeed fall, but the people of it's successor states still exist, the actual land itself exists. I believe what the line was meant to convey was that the current political climate, the regime currently ruling the Klingon Empire, could not survive the catastrophe.
And if you look at it, it didn't. Alliance was almost forced upon the Klingon Empire. In the later series, hardly any Klingon you see actually likes it, it's sort of a grudging acceptance. Just about the only leader that embraces it is Martok. Gowron was very much using the Federation for his own ends, and even K'mpec wasn't exactly thrilled about the alliance. However, they HAVE to accept it, as without the Federation, their homeworld would be fallow (clearly the Federation did something, not sure what, to halt the destruction of the ecosystem, leaving it habitable if rough)
posted on February 20th, 2014, 3:34 pm
about klingons not liking being in an alliance with the feds (or anyone really). there's also the romulans to consider. as much as klingons enjoy war, their leaders know that the klingons aren't strong enough on their own to decisively beat the romulans (and defeating the federation would leave them weakened and vulnerable to the romulans). hence the need for a significant ally to, at the least, keep the stalemate.
posted on February 20th, 2014, 5:32 pm
Different edits of the film probably add and remove the reference to the ozone depletion that resulted from the destruction of Praxis. The tech and science behind it is clearly specious, the reference is there to provide the requisite spur for the subsequent events.
The allegory for the end of the Cold War was highly appropriate, given that the Klingons were essentially Soviets in space during TOS, and the start of the peace process creates a continuity tie-in with TNG.
As for the reluctance of the alliance, well, it's unsurprising given the vast differences between the two cultures. But there is a lot of mutual respect there. Gowron may have used Picard for his own political agenda, but that involvement backfired on him more than somewhat as Picard's honour and honestly undoubtedly won the Federation admirers in the High Council. The revelation of Romulan manipulation of Klingon politics by Worf would have also driven the Empire more towards the Federation--note how far Lursa and B'Etor had been pushed from mainstream Klingon politics by Generations.
As for Martok, we know his origins are considerably more humble than many of the other prominent warriors and leaders of the Empire we've seen. It's quite possible that the "working class" Klingons saw far more benefit from the alliance than the political elite, and that predisposition, coupled with his observations of Worf and Bashir during their time incarcerated in a Dominion prison camp, carried over to his thinking after his ascension to Chancellor.
Finally, the Dominion War likely also did a lot of good to the relationship. The Klingons admire tenacity and heart, and given that the main thrust of the invasion was into the Federation, that was demonstrated more than amply.
The allegory for the end of the Cold War was highly appropriate, given that the Klingons were essentially Soviets in space during TOS, and the start of the peace process creates a continuity tie-in with TNG.
As for the reluctance of the alliance, well, it's unsurprising given the vast differences between the two cultures. But there is a lot of mutual respect there. Gowron may have used Picard for his own political agenda, but that involvement backfired on him more than somewhat as Picard's honour and honestly undoubtedly won the Federation admirers in the High Council. The revelation of Romulan manipulation of Klingon politics by Worf would have also driven the Empire more towards the Federation--note how far Lursa and B'Etor had been pushed from mainstream Klingon politics by Generations.
As for Martok, we know his origins are considerably more humble than many of the other prominent warriors and leaders of the Empire we've seen. It's quite possible that the "working class" Klingons saw far more benefit from the alliance than the political elite, and that predisposition, coupled with his observations of Worf and Bashir during their time incarcerated in a Dominion prison camp, carried over to his thinking after his ascension to Chancellor.
Finally, the Dominion War likely also did a lot of good to the relationship. The Klingons admire tenacity and heart, and given that the main thrust of the invasion was into the Federation, that was demonstrated more than amply.
posted on February 20th, 2014, 7:57 pm
MadHatter wrote:As for Martok, we know his origins are considerably more humble than many of the other prominent warriors and leaders of the Empire we've seen. It's quite possible that the "working class" Klingons saw far more benefit from the alliance than the political elite, and that predisposition, coupled with his observations of Worf and Bashir during their time incarcerated in a Dominion prison camp, carried over to his thinking after his ascension to Chancellor.
i'd like to add to the martok discussion by pointing out that martok is the first chancellor we've seen that actually fit the klingon stereotype of being honourable. Gowron and kmpec were politicians, they would bend honour. Martok would likely see it as dishonourable to go against a loyal ally. the federation never broke the treaty/treaties and genuinely pushed for peace and prosperity for both sides. martok wouldn't want to stab them in the back.
posted on February 20th, 2014, 11:11 pm
I second that assumption by Myles. It would be really interesting to see a series set after DS9 and get an idea on how the alliance has evolved.
posted on February 20th, 2014, 11:42 pm
Perhaps Gorkon was an honourable chancellor as well, but overall, great point Myles.
Also, the alliance must be kept because of chocolate:
(Image from the tumblr Garbled Transmissions from Deep Space, which has many hilarious examples of Google's automatic captions getting it ... wrong.)
Also, the alliance must be kept because of chocolate:
(Image from the tumblr Garbled Transmissions from Deep Space, which has many hilarious examples of Google's automatic captions getting it ... wrong.)
posted on February 21st, 2014, 9:02 am
and i just watched that episode. nice tumblrposted on February 21st, 2014, 10:20 am
Very true. Martok was (by his own admission too) a Soldier, not a Politician. The fact that he saw Federation ships destroyed, crews sacrifice themselves to save comrades etc, would have galvanised his view that the Federation were worthy allies, that they had a warrior spirit. I'd imagine (as you've said) this would also apply for the common soldier on the frontlines. Unlike the politicians, the elite back home, they saw the Federation "redshirt" as just like them for perhaps the first time (given the propaganda they'd be subject to)
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