A Question About the ST Fanbase

posted on April 3rd, 2014, 5:59 pm

I'll admit, I have recently been one of those vocal opponents of Abrams' Star Trek and STO...that was more (for me at least) because I had a nagging feeling that something was wrong with Abrams' films that I just couldn't figure out, and then when I realised it I kinda had to rant aha...think of Guinan from Yesterday's Enterprise.

Got to say though, everyone here is giving amazing points. It's good to see people discussing this sensibly rather than doing what I did and spending three paragraphs ranting ;-)

posted on April 3rd, 2014, 6:47 pm

Compare the Kirk seen in TWoK, at least post-attack, willing to blast the crap out of Khan at the drop of a hat

i agree with every other point in your post, and i especially thought your thoughts on TMP were well put.

but i think you're confusing drop of a hat with khan had just shot at his ship a bunch and was threatening to commit more crimes such as murdering his entire crew: at first khan threatened to destroy his ship, then khan was evasive about whether he'd accept kirk's personal surrender. also khan had a well armed starship, and possibly a WMD (spock was wrong about khan certainly not having genesis, he may have had it and just not know how to turn it on yet). kirk's response was as it should be. he had a duty to deal with the threat khan posed. especially later on when khan actually did steal genesis.

posted on April 3rd, 2014, 9:25 pm

i can't see where you're coming from here. khan was deliberately a relic of a hostile and warlike era. he was like that in TOS as well. he was never going to be able to chill. i'm sure kirk would have happily arrested him, but that opportunity never presented itself, khan (smartly) rarely left the safety of the reliant. also khan blew himself up with the genesis device, not kirk.

That came to a peaceable solution in Space Seed. I'm sure with a different script they could have come to a more peaceful solution. I hear the "with a different script" comments about JJ Trek all the time.

i'd be interested in some concrete evidence for that, i didn't notice any significant change between the films. they introduce only 1 new ship, the reliant, and it's no more powerful than the enterprise. in fact, without khan's ruse, it may even have been weaker. starfleet has always been a combined military/police/exploration organisation.

Nicholas Meyer has stated in interviews he actively tried to portray Starfleet as more militarized, specifically like a navy and argued with Gene Roddenbery over it. It's reflected in the music, the uniform designs, and the way scenes are filmed such as the "sinking submarine" style of scene in engineering when the Reliant makes its surprise attack. Check out some of the special features of the Wrath of Khan Director's Cut DVD , though I first learned about his intents in the "Art of Star Trek" book of all places.

not even close. the battles were memorable, but weren't that long.

The battle is memorable yes, I was making a reference to Mr. Plinkett's review of Nemesis. I'm not trying to put Wrath of Khan down at all. It's an awesome movie. But the mood and tone is dramatically different from TOS Trek. There are problems with JJ Trek too, but the "it's different from the original message and therefore bad" excuse is not really a valid excuse. There are a lot of other things to poke at in those movies. I'm not trying to defend JJ Trek or put down Prime Trek, I'm simply pointing out that flaw with the "it's different' excuse for hating the new films.

art direction wasn't good either. i was fine with the fed ship designs, but the narada design was a horrible tentacle monster. it's impossible to get a beauty shot of the narada, same goes for the jellyfish.

These are much more valid reasons then "it's different," though the visual designs are still mostly subjective. I loathe the new design of the Enterprise, the bulbous nacelles are the dumbest thing ever done in Star Trek ship designs imo, but it doesn't really effect the actual movie, just the little artist part in my brain that says "I would never ever design a ship like that because it looks stupid."

Really the only reasons I can see for disliking JJ Trek is the sloppy scripts, though I think it's partially because of how fast paced everything is. Like you mention there's a mess of phasers and explosions on screen, but I think it's more because those scenes go by so fast you don't have time to take it all in like some episodes of DS9. It's too fast and needs to slow down more. It's also less JJ Abrams in that case of the script and more so the fault of the script writers Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci.

posted on April 4th, 2014, 8:44 am

That came to a peaceable solution in Space Seed. I'm sure with a different script they could have come to a more peaceful solution. I hear the "with a different script" comments about JJ Trek all the time.

a true peaceable solution would be khan reforming, realising he was being bad and becoming a good guy. the actual solution was only half peaceable. put khan in prison, or marroon him on a random planet. i'm surprised starfleet didn't punish kirk for such a silly action, khan was a criminal, he should have been arrested and imprisoned, not given his own planet with blackjack and hookers.

also WoK's entire plot is based on Khan's desire to avenge himself upon kirk. it's in the title, Wrath of Khan, not reappearance of khan, or khan 2 electric boogaloo. khan is angry and only wants to hurt kirk, he's quite possibly insane. there's no peaceful solution, as khan clearly won't accept one. the only way it ends bloodless is if kirk can somehow stun khan and arrest him. but khan never presents that sort of vulnerability. any script that has khan accept a peaceful solution would suck as khan would have to stop behaving in character.

Nicholas Meyer has stated in interviews he actively tried to portray Starfleet as more militarized, specifically like a navy and argued with Gene Roddenbery over it. It's reflected in the music, the uniform designs, and the way scenes are filmed such as the "sinking submarine" style of scene in engineering when the Reliant makes its surprise attack.

i see your point, but to me that seems that starfleet was always a military, and we just get to see it from a different angle this time. Starfleet has always been like a navy, even in TOS ships had naval designations and crew used naval ranks. there were officers and enlisted men, court martials and war games. Starfleet always deals with military matters, it never passes problems to another organisation.

as for the submarine comparison, "TOS: Balance of Terror" has already done that. the enterprise and the romulan BoP chased each other around for ages, even violating the neutral zone. that battle may even have inspired WoK's battle.

but the "it's different from the original message and therefore bad" excuse is not really a valid excuse.

just to be clear, i've never used that reason. ds9 differed from TOS and was brilliant. one of my reasons for not liking jjtrek is that it differs from the original feel of real trek, not the message. all previous trek had a certain feel to it, the space opera feel. they weren't action movies or action shows. jjtrek radically changed that.

the bulbous nacelles are the dumbest thing ever done in Star Trek ship designs imo

not the third nacelle glued onto the galaxy from AGT? i guess everyone has their own thing they hate most. the bulbous nacelles really made me uncomfortable at first, but i was willing to give them a try and get used to them, as it was a radical reboot after all. i was particularly happy about getting rid of the red bussard collectors. that felt like something that should have stayed. but i would have overlooked such small things if the rest of the film was good.

posted on April 4th, 2014, 1:06 pm

the bulbous nacelles are the dumbest thing ever done in Star Trek ship designs imo

not the third nacelle glued onto the galaxy from AGT? i guess everyone has their own thing they hate most. the bulbous nacelles really made me uncomfortable at first, but i was willing to give them a try and get used to them, as it was a radical reboot after all. i was particularly happy about getting rid of the red bussard collectors. that felt like something that should have stayed. but i would have overlooked such small things if the rest of the film was good.

I too could have overlooked poor ship aesthetics if the movie was good, but that is not the case. Even if the movie were good, I still would not have been pleased with the "new" Enterprise. The nacelles from JJTrek are far worse that adding a third to the Enterprise in AGT;That had some element of cool and weird to it as opposed to just ugly. (You want to point out something bad from AGT then how about Crusher's Olympic-class hospital ship.) But for all the poor design choices in the new movies, I really find the USS Kelvin to be a intriguing and somewhat beautiful ship. I also like the enlarged registry numbering on the saucers; different, but appealing.

I was a little conflicted with the engineering set too. I understand what they were trying to go for (very industrial-busy feel) but it was more about the look than any functionality, unlike Prime Trek. The engine room just looks like a mess of pipes and vats at an oil refinery than anything suitable for future space travel. Not to mention the scene with Scotty being sucked through them is incredibly farcical and dumb...

posted on April 4th, 2014, 4:25 pm

the engine room just looks like a mess of pipes and vats at an oil refinery

If memory serves, that's because it is. I read somewhere that they ran out of time or budget and basically used a brewery somewhere to film the engine room scenes.

posted on April 4th, 2014, 5:30 pm

the engine room just looks like a mess of pipes and vats at an oil refinery

If memory serves, that's because it is. I read somewhere that they ran out of time or budget and basically used a brewery somewhere to film the engine room scenes.

Incredible! More fuel to the fire!

posted on April 4th, 2014, 10:37 pm

the engine room just looks like a mess of pipes and vats at an oil refinery

If memory serves, that's because it is. I read somewhere that they ran out of time or budget and basically used a brewery somewhere to film the engine room scenes.

That is spot on, I remember reading about that in 2009/2010. They ran out of money building all the other apple store style sets. So for the minor engineering parts they filmed them at a brewery. They however fixed that with Into the Darkness were we get a more consistent engineering set.

posted on April 4th, 2014, 10:44 pm

I'm glad someone else remembers reading that too. Good to know i'm not barmy Thank you Majestic

posted on April 5th, 2014, 1:25 am

I'm glad someone else remembers reading that too. Good to know i'm not barmy Thank you Majestic

Glad to help mate.