USS Midway Question

posted on September 28th, 2011, 7:20 pm

Thought you meant the original.

They should keep the number not the prototype marker, since is isn't a prototype. They would just add a letter at the end of the number (if they made new footage).

Agreed, I think that it was just a case of ILM laziness or just reusing old footage to be cheap.

[jetnova16]

posted on September 28th, 2011, 8:19 pm

Last edited by jetnova16 on September 28th, 2011, 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wow! All this over a simple question about my fan fiction.... I should feel so lucky.  :lol:

In my viewing and such, ships start with the NX designation and then go NCC after successful trials. The Galaxy did this, as did numerous others. In the case of the Midway she was pushed into service during a war and they didn't have the time to change the registry. Then she was lost and eventually classified destroyed until her Captain re-appears on DS9 with news of the ship and crew's survival and the predicament they are now in.

The Leyte Gulf was cancelled during the early stages of construction and wasn't completed till a couple of years after the war was concluded. They were too resource intensive and in fact the Midway herself was almost cancelled, it was only due to the fact she was only 6 months away from completion that it was decided to complete her rather than putting her into storage.  

The Legacy is the pathfinder of the Legacy class, official replacement of the Galaxy in exploration duties after the Galaxy deemed too offensive since the Dominion War and many being refitted to Galaxy III specifications in preparation for another conflict. The Legacy started off as NX and then her trials she was changed to NCC and launched on a one year shake down cruise. In fact she is the ship that is the responsible of discovering the build-up of Breen forces before the war and was also the ship responsible for the conclusion of the war, unfortunately she was too badly damaged to be repaired and was scrapped  after the war.

Thank you Majestic, you got me to want to write again. For some reason I haven't been able to come up with ideas.

I think you may know about my Star Trek novel and also how I have renamed it Star Trek Legacy: The Rise And Fall Of The United Federation of Planets, well I was getting closer and closer to a timeline for the fall, when I was hoping to advert that. Now the Klingon's have almost been eliminated by "The New Dominion" (an Alliance of the Dominion, Re-Conqured Cardassians, The Breen, The Sernaix and for awhile the Borg). Well, I have had no choice to force the Federation, and the surviving races of the Alphas Quadrant into the Andromdea Galaxy to flee Sernaix occupation (of course they are going to return but that is where I have been stuck at).

I know, if you remember from my novel before, alot of the war was in the past (TIme Travel) and also centers around Captain Jonathan Archer and T'Pol along with the Enterprise NX-01, and to not spoil for others, "a msytery character".

******

By any chance, what does the Legacy-class resemble? I have seen a few ODF files in saying "USS Legacy" but they are all different ships.

I Googled the USS Midway  NX-87973, and ended up finding a ship with the name "USS Midway NCC 51909", she is an Akira-class though.

Well you have gotten me interested in wanting to read your fan fiction sometime. Sounds extreamly interesting!

posted on September 28th, 2011, 9:20 pm

The NX Designation is also heavily based on the experimental aircraft registries from real life, IE: the YF-22 Raptor became the F-22 Raptor once it went out of testing and into general production.
Experimental aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of experimental aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tok'ra, I should warn you if you didn't know, anyone can edit and change Wikipedia information, thus it could be true or untrue. Students are even told that they cannot use Wikipedia as a source for Research Papers anymore because of that very reason. It isn't a creditable or even a reliable source, consider what you read there to be inaccurate until it is backed up by a creditable source. I have always gone by that format since I was in high school and in college. I also wouldn't have any students of mine (I am planning on becoming a teacher someday) use Wikipedia as a source.

Your arguement is further eroded by the fact that the NX prefix is REMOVED from ships after a period of time, IE: the Excelsior had the proper NCC designation once it ceased to be an experimental testbed and just one of a class in full production.

Like I had said "Proto-Type", you are also forgetting that I said you were partially right, you are the one that had stated Experimental, that is why I said "you are partially right".

I know that. The Excelsior had the NX prefix for a very long time though. Oh and maybe I'll raise the point further with a ship with the same name and class, "USS Prometheus NX-74913" "USS Prometheus NCC-90513". Both are names from the Memory Alpha with Prometheus, which one is right then?

Experimental AND prototype. As I stated above, the first vessel of a class is the prototype, so it would by deffinition always get the NX designator (unless two prototypes were built at once, in which case both would) until the vessel were to be declared fully space worthy.

You forgot something, before any vessel would lose the NX Prefix, and become and NCC, it would also have to successfully complete trial runs and a minor shakedown cruise before it is fully deemed fit to not be experimental and is actually space worthy. Heck, I bet the ships would even put through mock combat situations before they are even deemed worthy or even ready to have their name changed to the NCC prefix.

Wow......

Well just a few things to consider.....

1.  Enterprise and Columbia both had NX prefixes NX-01 and NX-02 respectively

2.  The Excelsior was NX-2000 and then changed to NCC

So i would tend to believe, (based on Enterprise) that NX is more-so for experimental due to the NX-02 having the NX prefix yet being of the same class as NX-01, furthermore, beyond that piece of information, what would need to be found is a first ship of a class that doesnt have the NX prefix, as i would assume most first of their class ships would be somewhat experimental and I would assume that perhaps their would be more NX's out there that only produced one ship, a prototype and did not have a class that followed.

Take #2 for example the NX-2000 excelsior was a experimental ship testing out transwarp drive, it was then changed to NCC-2000 the head of the Excelsior class, albeit without the experimental transwarp drive.

On to the Enterprise NX-01 and the NX-02 Columbia. They aren't Federation starships, infact they are Starfleet and United Earth Vessels. The NX in their case is the NX-class. Later on Starfleet and the Federation brought the NX Prefix up to be for Proto-Type and Experimental Vessels, after all most of the time a new starship is experimental and is also the beginning of a new class, the testbed for the class, thus NX as part of its registry. I also know that they usually (not all the time) lose the NX Prefix if they are Prototype vessels, but not all the time of course.

The Excelsior was really designed to test Transwarp Technology but the test was deemed a failure because it failed the first time they tried to use the Transwarp Drive. Instead it really was a failure because Scotty disabled the ship's Transwarp Drive as a favor for Kirk and the others taking the Enterprise to the Genesis Planet.

All first of their class ships are experimental at first, but not all experimental ships are first of their class.

I am courious then, can you identify a ship that actually isn't a first of its class that is actually a prototype. I know of only one ship and its name never changed to have the NX Prefix. The Vesta-class' USS Aventine NCC 82602 under the Command of Captain Ezri Dax was the only ship of her class to be installed with an Experimental Quantum Slipstream Drive.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Aventine
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Vesta_class

As stated:

"The Vesta-class starship USS Aventine served as a test-bed for a number of new Starfleet technologies, including quantum slipstream drive. Systems installed as part of the slipstream drive included a quantum field focus controller at the front of the ship's main deflector, and a chroniton integrator; the latter of which could be used to take sensor readings several seconds into the future when the ship was using its slipstream drive"

And this was all done to the "USS Aventine NCC 82602", not the entire Vesta-class.

Ok, I think Aventine has broken some holes into what you are saying about a ship in the middle of a class or part of a class becoming Experimental and getting the NX Prefix. Aventine didn't. I would say no ship ever did, they kept their NCC registry. Now if the USS Vesta was given the Quantum Slipstream Drive Prototype, her name most likely would have returned to NX.

*********************
I really don't want to discuss the differences of NX and NCC any more and what is the first of a class and what isn't, nor experimental verses not experimental. So how about we just leave it at that??

posted on September 28th, 2011, 10:02 pm

Jetnova, I understand your skepticism regarding Wikipedia. Know though that each and every change is protocolled, and there are enough basement dwellers working night and day on keeping the wiki free of these abominable sorts of people. I wouldn't use it when I could get things from a book instead, but it's actually quite reliable (as long as you don't read articles about politics )

Hey, can you give me an exact source for the NCC-90513? I know that there was an inconsistency between the displays and the cgi hull markings, but I've never seen that number before.

You forgot something, before any vessel would lose the NX Prefix, and become and NCC, it would also have to successfully complete trial runs and a minor shakedown cruise before it is fully deemed fit to not be experimental and is actually space worthy. Heck, I bet the ships would even put through mock combat situations before they are even deemed worthy or even ready to have their name changed to the NCC prefix.

Probably yes, but there is nothing in canon to suggest that, it's pure speculation. 

The Excelsior was really designed to test Transwarp Technology but the test was deemed a failure because it failed the first time they tried to use the Transwarp Drive. Instead it really was a failure because Scotty disabled the ship's Transwarp Drive as a favor for Kirk and the others taking the Enterprise to the Genesis Planet.

The TNG tech manual is the only source that calls the Excelsior Transwarp a failure, and it's not canon. Really, from what we've seen in the movie, it seems like they could easily repair it. I mean, its just a few parts missing, what should be so hard to repair about that?

I am courious then, can you identify a ship that actually isn't a first of its class that is actually a prototype. I know of only one ship and its name never changed to have the NX Prefix. The Vesta-class' USS Aventine NCC 82602 under the Command of Captain Ezri Dax was the only ship of her class to be installed with an Experimental Quantum Slipstream Drive.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Aventine
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Vesta_class

As stated:
And this was all done to the "USS Aventine NCC 82602", not the entire Vesta-class.

Ok, I think Aventine has broken some holes into what you are saying about a ship in the middle of a class or part of a class becoming Experimental and getting the NX Prefix. Aventine didn't. I would say no ship ever did, they kept their NCC registry. Now if the USS Vesta was given the Quantum Slipstream Drive Prototype, her name most likely would have returned to NX.

Sorry to say that, but Aventine is not canon. Novels are not canon.

Really, I don't like referring to canon that much, but it's pretty much the lowest common denominator for fanfics. And every piece of licensed material - every game, every book - is just a fanfic that people are making money with. If it wasn't seen or heard on-screen, it's not canon. Now CBS or whoever owns the rights nowadays can say what they want - it's the definition of Trek canon. I don't say they're all crap and I certainly don't say you can't run with what they say, but others are at liberty to dismiss your arguments if they are based on non-canon sources.

posted on September 28th, 2011, 10:09 pm

I do not know of any NCC-90513 used for the Prometheus in MA, only NX-59650 (Hull) and NX-74913 (LCARS). Must have got 59650 mixed up with something else.

posted on September 28th, 2011, 10:45 pm

Jetnova, I understand your skepticism regarding Wikipedia. Know though that each and every change is protocolled, and there are enough basement dwellers working night and day on keeping the wiki free of these abominable sorts of people. I wouldn't use it when I could get things from a book instead, but it's actually quite reliable (as long as you don't read articles about politics )

Tell that to a colloge professor or a person with a Doctorite Degree in English and or Writing. Every college professor I have had has always said that using Wikipedia is sure to give you wrong uncredited information and you'll be bond to getting a bad grade. The better grades will come from not using Wikipedia as a source. High School teachers even said to stay a way from Wikipedia and in Middle School some teachers made it a requirement not to use Wikipedia as a source noneless an information source. You want to use it, got to a real hardcopy Encylopedia and get the correct accurate information.

If your lucky you might find correct information on Wikipedia but 9 times out of 10 you'll get something wrong. I remember one of my college classes had us run an experiment and placed wrong information into a Wikipedia document and kept periodically checking it to find out if it was changed and I know for that whole semester it wasn't, and I bet it still hasn't been changed but I don't care to check since I have learned all about Wikipedia and know not to use it, heck if it turns up for a Google Search I ignore it like the plague.

Hey, can you give me an exact source for the NCC-90513? I know that there was an inconsistency between the displays and the cgi hull markings, but I've never seen that number before.

I really don't know where to find the exact registry for the USS Prometheus, I would say the correct one is on the forward section of the hull of the ship shown in the Voyager episode "Message In A Bottle".

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Prometheus_(Prometheus_class)
http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/prommain.html

There is also a Nebula-class starship named "USS Prometheus" and it was seen in the Deep Space Nine Episode "Second Sight" http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Prometheus_(NCC-71201) http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Second_Sight_(episode)

The TNG tech manual is the only source that calls the Excelsior Transwarp a failure, and it's not canon. Really, from what we've seen in the movie, it seems like they could easily repair it. I mean, its just a few parts missing, what should be so hard to repair about that?

I believe the failure of the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive is talked about in one of the TNG or DS9 Episodes, I forgot which one though. I do know that I have heard it right on TV though. It was one of Starfleet's Greatest Failures.
This of course is from the movie as I can't figure out what episode I heard it in but I remember hearing on screen that the Greatest Failure in Star Fleet was the USS Excelsior and her Transwarp Drive.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRf1zI2IoWQ&NR=1[/youtube]

Sorry to say that, but Aventine is not canon. Novels are not canon.

Really, I don't like referring to canon that much, but it's pretty much the lowest common denominator for fanfics. And every piece of licensed material - every game, every book - is just a fanfic that people are making money with. If it wasn't seen or heard on-screen, it's not canon. Now CBS or whoever owns the rights nowadays can say what they want - it's the definition of Trek canon. I don't say they're all crap and I certainly don't say you can't run with what they say, but others are at liberty to dismiss your arguments if they are based on non-canon sources.

Some people say that the books aren't canon and others don't. Some aspects take their roots from canon. Now a totally not canon Star Trek novel series is the ones by William Shatner. With the Borg and the Romulan Alliance that brought Kirk back to life, who knows, possible after all we don't know the extent of Borg technology and what they can do to a dead body, as long as they have the body to work with.

My case and point is though, The USS Aventine is the only ship you can actually say is the testbed for new technology (in her case Quantum Slipstream Drive) and hasn't been given an NX Registry. I don't see the possibility noneless of actually finding something from a Star Trek movie or series that says otherwise, thus the Star Trek Destiny Series is the only logical evidence that there is, and remember, Memory Alpha is for all Canon Related Star Trek well Memory Beta is for the Books and non-canon related Star Trek.

Actually, the books have to be approved by Paramount and also Pocket Books so they still have to have alittle truth to them to actually get published. They actually have guidelines to follow when an author writes a Star Trek novel, the same is actually said for MGM and StarGate SG-1, StarGate Atlantis, and StarGate Universe (SGU).

[Tyler]

posted on September 28th, 2011, 11:10 pm

Last edited by Tyler on September 28th, 2011, 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Neither Transwarp nor the Excelsior was ever referred to as a failure in canon to my memory, however Data once mentioned 'the last full-system breakdown' that supposedly coincides with the Excelsior sabotage from the film.

For all they gave us in canon (pretty much nothing), it might have even worked and just been a more advanced version of regular Warp Drive.

posted on September 29th, 2011, 12:39 am

May I ask that this thread get back onto the topic of what the thread was created for, not a debate about NX/NCC registries.

Oh also, massive props for your fanfic having a ship named Leyte Gulf, when doing single player I tend to pop into the editor and rename a galaxy that as my flagship. For those that dont know, Leyte Gulf was the largest naval battle in history between the U.S. and Japan.

Thank you, I have always liked the name Leyte Gulf and when I discovered about the WWII battle and that there was also a Battle of Midway (had already been using the Midway name) I decided that the Gulf had to be the second Midway class vessel. 

Thank you Majestic, you got me to want to write again. For some reason I haven't been able to come up with ideas.

You're welcome.

By any chance, what does the Legacy-class resemble? I have seen a few ODF files in saying "USS Legacy" but they are all different ships.

I Googled the USS Midway  NX-87973, and ended up finding a ship with the name "USS Midway NCC 51909", she is an Akira-class though.

Well you have gotten me interested in wanting to read your fan fiction sometime. Sounds extreamly interesting!

The Legacy is kind of a cross between a Galaxy and a Sovereign. It has the Galaxy's overall shape but the hull look of a Sovereign. I started a A2 model many moons ago but never got to complete it. I only got the saucer done really. 

You'll probably won't find the (my) Midway on google, considering I am still working on the new design for the ship. However the original version was a borrowed design, in fact many years back Major Payne did a model of her and back about a year or so ago I updated it with textures by Aad Moerman before I learnt how to texture myself. However that is the RPG version of the ship and never really did fit as a fighter carrier. I attached some screenshots of the old Midway done by Jetfreak,

Attachments

posted on September 29th, 2011, 2:16 am

May I ask that this thread get back onto the topic of what the thread was created for, not a debate about NX/NCC registries.

Thank you, I have always liked the name Leyte Gulf and when I discovered about the WWII battle and that there was also a Battle of Midway (had already been using the Midway name) I decided that the Gulf had to be the second Midway class vessel. 

You're welcome.

The Legacy is kind of a cross between a Galaxy and a Sovereign. It has the Galaxy's overall shape but the hull look of a Sovereign. I started a A2 model many moons ago but never got to complete it. I only got the saucer done really. 

You'll probably won't find the (my) Midway on google, considering I am still working on the new design for the ship. However the original version was a borrowed design, in fact many years back Major Payne did a model of her and back about a year or so ago I updated it with textures by Aad Moerman before I learnt how to texture myself. However that is the RPG version of the ship and never really did fit as a fighter carrier. I attached some screenshots of the old Midway done by Jetfreak,

Those picture look good. Is that version of the Midway a cross between the Sovereign-class and the Akira-class? I think I see the Akira-class's Chain Reaction Pulsar Pod above the nacelles.

I like to evenually see a version of the Legacy-class you make the ship sound unique and interesting.

posted on September 29th, 2011, 6:57 am

I do plan to get back to it, as well as several other post-TNG designs, including a re-model of my Dawnstar, but for now I am working on ENT models and then I will be sorting out my TMP designs.

posted on September 29th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Those picture look good. Is that version of the Midway a cross between the Sovereign-class and the Akira-class? I think I see the Akira-class's Chain Reaction Pulsar Pod above the nacelles.

I can't stop myself and make a small, but very important correction here: The Akira has no "chain-reaction pulsar pod", although in the stock game it really fires that weapon from there. But originally, it's a torpedo pod with several torpedo launcher tubes which cover almost 360°

posted on September 29th, 2011, 6:53 pm

I can't stop myself and make a small, but very important correction here: The Akira has no "chain-reaction pulsar pod", although in the stock game it really fires that weapon from there. But originally, it's a torpedo pod with several torpedo launcher tubes which cover almost 360°

I didn't know that. I thought it was just for the Pulsar in the game, on screen, I know the torpedos fired from there. That is why any additional ship I give the Chain Reaction Pulsar to actually fires it from a Torpedo Tube.

Thanks for the information.