Pulses on large ships

posted on June 11th, 2010, 5:50 pm

quotes from an off topic discussion in another topic:

i think pulses are odd for the nebula class. pulses on such a large ship seem odd. that bothers me about the phalanx too. i think there should be at minimum two nebula class variants, the two we saw clearly, the one with the giant plectrum shaped torp launcher on top, and the one with the bin lid shaped sensor array on top. each of course specialised, so the torp one being a torp ship and the sensor one having the good sensors like the current one. the other variants are less important to me, but i guess the four nacelled types could have better speed, maybe if pulses are to stay they could go on the fast nebula for harassing.

I think it's really odd that a refit would replace torps with pulses. Torps may not be very good against shielding, but they annihilate hulls. Torpedos also hav non-combat uses far greater than pulses. Pulses are also more limited by firing arcs, and would place more stress on the weapons systems. Unless ECM was being used extremely heavily or something. Agreed that a large ship probably wouldn't use pulses, it's just not Starfleet style (big ships got defensive armament, not offensive.)

What makes Pulses a little ship priority? There's nothing wrong with big ships using them, because they're not size specific, have advantages Torpedoes don't and 'out-of-battle' use is irrelivant here.

Where does 'Starfleet-style' and this stress thing come from? I don't recall that in either Trek nor Fleet Ops canon.

More importantly, we're off-topic.

I think pulses serve small ships better than large ships. lets take the defiant as an example, it has pulses, they are fixed to the front of the ship, and have a rather small firing arc, presumably an elliptical cone in front of the ship. it aims its pulses by moving the whole ship so the ship is aimed roughly at the enemy. this works as the defiant is fast and can get into nice firing positions on big ships.

the nebula class is similar in size and looks a lot like a galaxy, which in fo is established as a battleship, the nebula would be at minimum a cruiser size ship. as such it probably isnt very manœuvrable, so the forward firing pulses on the front of a neb would not be easily able to fire on a fast enemy hiding behind them.

some could suggest pulses that are mounted on turrets, which sounds like a nice suggestion, but then the pulse cannons would have to be smaller so the launcher itself could physically turn fast. which would mean less power, and in effect make the weapon a point defence weapon, or an anti fighter weapon, which arent very useful in fleetops.

@ tyler, i disagree with your comment about non combat uses for weapons, starfleet generally likes versatility and general purpose stuff. nearly all starfleet ships are designed for general use (primary use exploration, secondary use defence, and any other uses necessary such as humanitarian stuff etc) rather than only combat.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 5:51 pm

You are aware that FO is a war-game, right?

posted on June 11th, 2010, 5:55 pm

yes but the federation are modelled on the canon federation. thus fo fed ships are like canon fed ships. which means they inherit the characteristics of canon ships. like being general purpose, with specialities in exploration and possible uses in defensive roles.

the klingons are a good expample of offense oriented ship builders, their ships have torps and pulses all over. they dont care whether their weapons can be used for anything except sending their enemies to sto'vo'kor.

[Tyler]

posted on June 11th, 2010, 5:58 pm

Last edited by Tyler on June 11th, 2010, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Except ships in war would be refitted for war, peacetime caracteristics would be disabled on a good number of them.

Normally I'm the one talking about Federation ships being multi-purpose in canon, but FO doesn't actually follow canon that far though. All ships have a set purpose, regardless of what they could do in the show. Federation included.

The perfect example is the Defiant, here it's slow(er) and has a heavily reduced weapons array (even with the Quantums).

posted on June 11th, 2010, 6:06 pm

You are aware that FO is a war-game, right?

War game or not, when using an external IP, one should do what they can to keep the flavor of that IP.

In this case, the IP is Star Trek, and specifically, the Federation.  Barring Abrams relaunch, I can't think of an appearance of pulse phasers until the Defiant.  Everything else was beam.  In general, the feds LOVE their beam weapons.  Absolutely adore them.

Admiral Mayson probably sleeps with a stuffed phaser array, the engineers love putting those on ships so much.

Feel free to call it a tactical weakness, but really it has to do with Starfleet preferring to make sure their ships are able to defend themselves against a wide variety of potential threats.  That's beam, not pulse phasers.

I can't see any reason that they would, from a Starfleet perspective, *downgrade* the guns on a Nebula.  I suspect that the Defiant uses pulses for one reason.

It's easy to configure the emitter so that each pulse is a distinct and seperate frequency, thus hampering Borg adaptation.  After all, the thing was made to fight the Borg.

Toss in that in this war game, Pulses are only actually good against little ships, are reduced against cruisers and crippled against battleships and stations?  The engineers would be aware of that, and I don't see much reason they'd downgrade the Nebula's weapon system.

[Tyler]

posted on June 11th, 2010, 6:09 pm

Last edited by Tyler on June 11th, 2010, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Read my last post, not just the first one.

It's not a downgrade, it's a different focus. Warp-In is normally used when small/medium ships are around, and that's where the Nebula is found. It's a Nebula refitted for a particular purpose.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 6:09 pm

i would agree that during a war they would be weapons heavy, but i dont consider fleetops being set during a war. just there are some skirmishes (games). so i prefer to believe that the federation are behaving as usual.

warpin may be used during that time of the game, but the warpin ships are ships of starfleet that just happen to be nearby when u cry for help like the little fedrat u are.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 6:11 pm

There's also this part you're forgetting:

FO doesn't actually follow canon that far though. All ships have a set purpose, regardless of what they could do in the show. Federation included.

The perfect example is the Defiant, here it's slow(er) and has a heavily reduced weapons array (even with the Quantums).

posted on June 11th, 2010, 6:20 pm

your set purpose argument doesn't sit well with large ships having pulses.

large ships are slow and sluggish, and wouldnt do well aiming weapons like pulses.

also if u look at fo fed ships they are pretty similar to canon, most have beams and torps. good all round weapons. plus the sensor upgrades and scout with good sensor range fit well with the idea that fed ships are good at exploring.

[Tyler]

posted on June 11th, 2010, 6:29 pm

Last edited by Tyler on June 11th, 2010, 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It depends on what they intended this Nebula to be used for. It happens to be available when the enemy is still using small and medium ships. There'll be Nebula varients in the future, maybe Torpedoes will appear on them. Personally, I'm still hoping one varient will keep pulses (preferrably with more launchers so the firearc isn't a problem).

Starfleet's big ships aren't usually slow or sluggish. They've proven they can be quite maneuverable when they want.

Most things in game are Torpedo/beam based, only the Romulans are pulse heavy.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 7:00 pm

fo large ships are not that  manoeuvrable, they turn slowly. which is what u expect. we all remember when the defiant abused regent worf's neggie.

i just dont think the nebula should have such weapons. they work best in groups like on the defiant. if they were spread out around the nebula, to cover a large area, then they would either need stupidly large numbers (which would cost too much) or some areas would be covered by a single launcher, which would be weak. the nebula has a phaser array which covers a large arc, as it should be.

also the phoenix appeared to have long range weapons, and long range ships usually have slower speeds in fo.

[Tyler]

posted on June 11th, 2010, 7:08 pm

Last edited by Tyler on June 11th, 2010, 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You say FO isn't a viable example for ship roles over canon, but then go and switch from canon to FO yourself for speed? Hypocrite, both FO examples are valid (then again, I did also mention canon speed myself...). That Negh'Var was a Klingon ship, not a Starfleet one. Different tech, different empire, different universe (Martok's was never even seen moving, from what I remember, so we don't know if a prime universe Negh'Var would be any different. It was a lot smaller than Worf's, though).

Torpedo launchers are the same in that they also have limited arcs and multiple (fore and aft) would be needed to cover a large area. Launchers also require a large number of torpedoes in storage, taking up extra room and resources a Pulse Phaser wouldn't.

Phoenix was only one varient, and we don't know what the Devs plan to do with the others. As I said, maybe they'll get Photons, maybe they won't. We'll have to wait and see. Maybe they'll notice your arguments.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 7:39 pm

i'm looking at it from either point of view.

if we go strictly canon then nebula probably wouldnt get pulses as its not general enough

if we go by fo evidence, then large ships are not supposed to be very manoeuvrable and a neb wouldnt work well with pulses

im not a hypocrite, i respect that there are many various opinions, so i draw from all bases to make a conclusion, to include as much reasoning as i can.

in my opinion the nebula is too big for pulses.

posted on June 11th, 2010, 9:39 pm

The Nebula could have been redesigned against the Borg - since the pulse phasers were anti-Borg, then why wouldn't it makes sense for it to use them? That's why the Defiant had them, right? It's really all useless speculation however, as in Fleet Ops, the Nebula is from Warp-In, and is used as an excellent freighter and destroyer murderer (which ironically seems correlated with how the Phoenix murdered those Cardassian destroyers and freighters...  :whistling: ) . The Nebula is obviously pretty maneuverable in Fleet Ops, and it was seen to be such in TNG as well

posted on June 11th, 2010, 10:00 pm

the phoenix killed those ships in tng using torps i think.

plus that was the neb with the sensor dish rather than the plectrum pod.

the neb looks a lot like the galaxy, obviously sharing a lot wtih it. these ships arent small, and as such i couldnt imagine them zipping around as much as smaller ships. the smaller ships could make sure they dont stay in the front arc of the neb, completely avoiding its pulse weapons. thats why i dont think the neb should have them.

unless they make a 4 nacelled neb, which could possibly have increased engine abilities, which could justify a forward firing only weapon.

maybe the new orleans could get pulses in its pods, its a fair bit smaller and could credibly be very zippy.