More massage for the neurons

[Dr. Lazarus]

posted on October 19th, 2007, 12:25 pm

Last edited by Dr. Lazarus on October 19th, 2007, 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Here's another gem from Russellsteapot.com:

http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/dra-til-helvete.html

It's just a light-hearted cartoon, but it makes a serious point, one that's been verified by statisticians around the globe. There are many places where you can find data which verifies this correlation. Although we must guard against thinking that correlation is causation, it is possible to identify a strong statistical significance in this regard which simply won't go away. The best example is the US, an anomaly in the western world in that it is predominantly religious. Unfortunately for our american cousins and for their peace of mind, this has not resulted in moral behaviour and social cohesion. In fact, not only does religion have no monopoly on such things, but frequently it has the opposite effect.

Russell's teapot makes many other points but be warned that the webmaster sometimes uses bad language (but not in this link), and on this one I agree with the religious folk: I don't like it and never will. However this does not negate the points the webmaster is making.

posted on October 20th, 2007, 1:31 am

I can't say much more than... how (relatively) true, and how sad 

Darn it, today the world absolutely eats 

posted on October 20th, 2007, 12:21 pm

For a moment I wished I lived in Norway, except for the fact that I can't speak the local language. Shame...

[ewm90]

posted on October 20th, 2007, 1:45 pm

Last edited by ewm90 on October 20th, 2007, 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I wont to move to canida A?

But in I think the US upcoming elections will be a referendum on the coming ideas that have bean destroying my country and the people be hind the destruction which are mostly propelled in to power from the Crichton right.

[Dr. Lazarus]

posted on October 20th, 2007, 2:09 pm

Last edited by Dr. Lazarus on October 20th, 2007, 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well true separation of church and state would be a good start. I'd also like to see the religious empires taxed like any corporation so that they can't spend their ill gotten gains on gag orders to silence abuse victims. And those "intelligent design" advocates should stop poking their noses in to amercian kids' education until they can prove they understand the second law of thermodynamics, which none of them do. And this, and that, and another thing, and all the rest.

posted on October 20th, 2007, 8:32 pm

NOT disputing anything yur saying, ok? I'm just purely asking, what do u mean by TRUE separation of church and state? What point do u see it at right now?
(Not trying to get into a debate here, just asking, ok?)

[Dr. Lazarus]

posted on October 20th, 2007, 9:32 pm

Last edited by Dr. Lazarus on October 20th, 2007, 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not much of an expert, but to my way of thinking that would involve religion staying out of politics and vice versa. Actually I would prefer it if religion would stay out of people's brains, but in the real world people are free to worship as they please. Unfortunately many worshippers over step the mark, just as Bush overstepped the mark when he intimated that it was God's will for him to invade Iraq. This effectively puts a big bullseye on every american citizen's head for jihadists to target, ot others who want to reignite the fires of the crusades. Even worse, a significant proportion of the people in the so-called US democracy are unreligious and/or pacificists. So it is that the state imposes religion upon them. And when a court of law creates a precedent for teaching of ID, that is also an imposition, a violation of free will that the religious folk claim to cherish. Sorry about my wishy washy reply but I'm hardy a politics expert. So I don't know what point it's at, and I'm frankly more concerned about the idea of religion itself being eliminated.

Having said all that, I do recall something about religion and state being properly "separated" (however that is defined) in the original US constitution. Evidently the original spirit of it has been lost.

You're a cautiously inquisitive dude auxilio, but if you feel strongly about your beliefs then by all means say it. The best way to exercise the old neurons is to use them, and let me be blunt, I'm certain I can convince you that religion is outdated, harmful and even logically absurd. The fact that you don't dispute anything I'm saying is interesting because that should mean alarm bells are ringing. Did not Jesus say that you would recognise the righteous "by their fruits?". This is just common sense really (Jesus said nothing ingenious or that was not obvious, and even some divisive and provocative things). My point is, the fruits of religion are bad. The good that people do is in spite of their religion, not a result of it, and the stats bear testimony to this fact, and the prior fact. In fact the most kind and self-sacrificing people I've ever known are atheists or agnostics, and I was a Christian for 20 years. It seems that there's little to suggest to me that religion should be part of life, never mind politics.

posted on October 22nd, 2007, 1:23 am

ok, I truly was actually wondering WHAT yur viewpoint was! It had NOTHING do do with disputing you, ok? And I'm not disputing you, because I'm kind of tired of doing this, ok? It's NOT because I'm being convinced that God isn't real or anything.

[Dr. Lazarus]

posted on October 22nd, 2007, 4:32 pm

Last edited by Dr. Lazarus on October 22nd, 2007, 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually as far as politics is concerned, I have no viewpoint. This does not mean I'm mentally lazy or anything, far from it, it simply means I despise terms such as "left", "right", "liberal", "conservative" etc etc. I'll never be pigeonholed into such a division. I'm most interested in how the world works, so although my principal area of study is science, it also extends to economics and to some extent geopolitics, but not much else.

On the other hand, I never tire of "doing this" (as you may have noticed). So to continue, why are you convinced that God is real? If you make a statement, then back it up. I've noticed that most (all?) Christians grossly oversimplify our choice into:

Choice A: No God exists, the bible is uninspired, we've been given no real revelation.

Choice B: The Abrahamic, Judeo-Christian God exists and the bible is his message to us.

This is a classic (i.e. it appears in critical thinking textbooks) logical fallacy, and I won't fall for it. Yes, our origins have not been explained, but did you consider that:

A: God may not be omnipotent? (this would explain a lot)
B: God may not be entirely benevolent? (this would explain a lot)
C: God may be non-personal
D: God may be disinterested (linked to B:)
E: God may not be omniscient
F: God may be far away (similar to E)
G: Some of the above are true
H: All of the above are true!

(Have a look at my signature for an interesting quote).

A thinking person will consider all of these things and much, much more. If you say to me, "well, I know God exists so that's good enough for me", then I'm hardly going to be convinced. I'd love to know why. and if you (somehow) manage to convince me that the Abrahamic God exists, you must also then do two things:

1) Explain to me why the bible contains sanctioned violence and genocide as well as vulgarity
2) Explain to me why suffering, in any form, has EVER been allowed to exist.

As regards 2), be aware that I will not fall for the classic Fall From Grace argument about free will. I was exposed to a very sophisticated version of this referred to as the "Issue of Sovereignty" when I was a Christian. I dismantled it quickly once I learned how to reason.

You may be tired of this, and you may not wish to dispute me. However, try to understand my reaction when you say empty stuff like "It's NOT because I'm being convinced God isn't real or anything". That's a statement from a closed mind behind a closed door. It seems you're afraid to engage in a real debate just incase what I'm saying is reasonable. And believe me, it's more than reasonable. If you give me ear I can change your life, and for the better too (shock horror - not what you religious pals will tell you!).

posted on October 24th, 2007, 12:27 am

...hmmm, this is completely off topic, but as I was reading this, my screen flashed and now I apparently have 10 less posts... and my post per day count thingy is down a few tenths of a decimal thingy... very strange! Maybe I have gone insane... or have had amnesia or something..

posted on October 24th, 2007, 12:50 pm

No you're right there Dom, I remember you saying a few days ago that you had 667 posts and I saw that 667 was being displayed. Perhaps some unexplained phenomenon in the space-time continuum goosed up your post count. If it wasn't that, I don't know what it was... 

posted on October 24th, 2007, 3:26 pm

Oh well... double jeapordy for being EVILLLLLLL!!! muhaha. and a half. 
Maybe I'm being given a second chance. Lasciate ogni speranza voi ch'entrate...

posted on October 24th, 2007, 4:30 pm

Well, next time you pass by Hell, tell the Devil that there's gonna be an awful lot of atheists comin' his way in the coming decades. God ordered that they be burned eternally, the reason for their punishment being that the atheist folk told everyone that God wants atheists to be burned eternally. If you catch my drift. Come on work with me on this one... 

posted on October 24th, 2007, 11:07 pm

I think I understand you... but my mind is now concentrating on how to formulate this creative writing assingnment on the Flying Spaghetti Monster 
Plus, I much prefer to meet Cereberus

...so atheists are only relegated to the outer ring of hell? I guess the center, freezing one must be reserved for those who_________ (this message not fit to be aired, we apologize for the inconvenience)

posted on October 24th, 2007, 11:15 pm

Dom your head is filled with amazing stuff 

In the creative writing assignment you must give due honour to His great noodly appendages. Apart from that I have no further recommendations, you're very much on your own.