A2 Files poll

[Terra_Inc]

posted on December 10th, 2010, 10:06 pm

Last edited by Terra_Inc on December 10th, 2010, 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

You posted that poll why dont you take responsibly for it. That poll had nothing to do with FO at all it was just because you were getting irritated at some people. I dont like being label a fanboy because of my affiliation with FO.

Actually... I didn't. Freyr and the kid have been administrating the site for a long time and they do the polls, I just joined them about two weeks ago to help with uploading files. I don't know which of them put the poll up, but it wasn't me.

i wasnt aware of any animosity between a2files and fleetops, since i dont actually have an a2files account nor visit a2files often.

Actually, it's a strange thing. There were some negative comments about non-FO mods in the past, and some people disliking the recent FO PotDs (which were really just screenshots, nothing special, but also nothing to flame). I think that sums it up, at least for the public part. I remember the kid stating that he is not an uber fan of FO over at MSFC, though (which has more activity than A2Files - no, really), he didn't seem too happy with FO's popularity. On the other side, after some FO trolls showed up and ruined the show you can imagine which impression we had to have of you people here. I don't know about you, but I always had the feeling that most of the A2Files visitors don't care for FO, and vice versa. And there is really no need for that.

The thing is, judging by how many people download FO per day (within the first 24 hours, over 900 downloads were gathered, and within a week, over 2000), A2Files is losing a rather large potential readership... kind of sad to me

It really is. One of the reasons why I joined the staff. I wanted to be able to bring stuff back to life. Of course, my RL kind of limits that, but I do the best I can. Most of the A2 community hangs out either here or at MSFC.

Since a lot has been said already, let me just mention that balance and playability have got to a priority for modders.

I agree. One of the problems with single-ship or fullrace mods is that you have to balance them on your own. That is why I released my Modder's Toolbox. (You might have heard of that one, the only useful thing I ever released at A2Files.) I do a lot of balancing work, right now for Maj's COE.

What have I done?

Apologies, Terra.  I have this nasty habit forcing confrontation with the hope of fostering some real discussion.  Looks like it worked   Apologies for writing what ended up being a forum post in that comments section on your site.  If you want me to apologize within that comments section, I will.  Just send me a PM.

Aw come on, what was I supposed to do?  It's not like I can criticize decisions of the Staff I myself am part of. Really, I agree with you, but it just seemed wrong to put the rest of the staff down, people whom I respect regardless of their opinion of FO.
Anyway, you might want to know that the dubious poll was replaced. I definitely don't want to fuel troll wars.

Peace, anyone? *points an olive branch at the FlOpsers*

posted on December 10th, 2010, 10:57 pm

Peace, anyone? *points an olive branch at the FlOpsers*

  Aha!  I love getting an Olive Branch!  .

  Peace accepted from ME at least .  I have no issue whatsoever as really it seems arbitrary for the most part.  If A2files wants to ignore FO for the most part, it doesn't really hurt us here at all.  If FO'ers want to stay here and writhe in our own delicious juices, it doesn't hurt you guys much. 

 
  It's very easy to get fan the flames of the interwebz though when something like a poll goes up.  It's kind of like the North Koreans sinking a South Korean Frigate and going "Hey!  We didn't do it!  But we LURVS the attention "

[Anonymous]

posted on December 10th, 2010, 11:09 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on December 10th, 2010, 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Haha, well there's no war, so no need for any olives, except in my martini.

There's definitely a long history between FO and the Files.  From people who have been around longer, and from reading many of the comments of yesteryear, I can see that there's definitely been jealousy at FO's popularity.  As we were talking about before, mods really are in competition with one another.  So how does one even compete with FO?  Optec and Doca have simply put in so much work, and have created a fan base (built up over years) to help spur them on and generate new ideas.  The other thing is that FO will always be looking to the future, because the scope of the project is so huge, and they'll always be ready to make it compatible.

So no single A2 mod will ever be able to go "toe to toe" with FO.  Ever.  So, should you guys give up then?  Not at all, and here's why.

You represent a niche market, and can definitely cater to them.  Before, an A2 mod either had to be dedicated to multiplayer (because that's all there was), singleplayer instant action ( ), or a simple single player ship add in.  If A2 mods aren't going to be dedicated to multiplayer, then the future of your site's success depends upon using MMM to create cool single player missions.  This actually makes ship add ons make sense for a 10 year old game that wasn't near as cool as Armada 1.  If your modders could learn and help Megadroid with MMM, then you don't need to try and compete with FO in the multiplayer department.  Tons of people would flock IN DROVES to play some good old fashioned A2 missions if they're fun and creative.

Let's be realistic.  In five years, what will interest people to come to A2 files and download content?  More ship add-ons?   Or does A2 files need something else that will entice people to go "Hey, I'd LOVE to play some creative and well thought out missions!!! "  And in some ways, you can even compete with FO on this, because FO will be constrained to multiplayer, and therefore won't have the flexibility to add in ships willy nilly for a mission.  A2 doesn't have this problem per se.

I know you agree with me on a lot of this, Terra.  I wrote this so that A2 file members (the ones that don't overlap between FO and that site) can read this and maybe get some ideas about how to breathe new life into your community.  All it takes is one good idea to change the world.  Here's mine.  Take it, make it yours, and go champion it.  Let's see if in six months the files as a whole can start creating some really cool missions for everyone to enjoy, that showcase some of the add-on ships that people have come up with.  I'd love to play some "historical" Star Trek battles, and I'd totally be cool with A2 files hosting that content.  Make it so.

posted on December 11th, 2010, 1:05 am

It says at the top of the page that it was posted by you but i guess if you didnt then i dont really have a reason to be irritated at you so

posted on December 11th, 2010, 3:38 am

That thing at the top might be the last poster or something.  If you go by the logic that it establishes who made the poll, then he made the poll 7 days after it started.      :fox:

Also to the A2 community:

I've been thinking, and I realized that if you are having people saying "If it's not FO, then it's worthless", these are probably the same people who come onto this site and argue that the Sovereign should have on offense of 263, that the Borg should be able to adapt and become immune to all weapons, and continue to complain that warp ins should be buildable, and a whole host of other "great balancing ideas" that are argued for over and over and over again.  We don't call them fanboys.  On this site, we just call them "special".

Don't let the Man get you down, and please think about what I've said.

[Terra_Inc]

posted on December 11th, 2010, 11:29 am

Last edited by Terra_Inc on December 11th, 2010, 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

That thing at the top might be the last poster or something.  If you go by the logic that it establishes who made the poll, then he made the poll 7 days after it started.       :fox:

Oh man, FF software...  The poster and date doesn't refer to the poll, but to the news item. When we make a new poll, the old one is moved to the news for archiving reasons. It does this automatically, so the person posting the next poll winds up as being the "poster" of the news item that contains the old poll. In this case, I posted the new poll, so it's my name in the header.

I've been thinking, and I realized that if you are having people saying "If it's not FO, then it's worthless", these are probably the same people who come onto this site and argue that the Sovereign should have on offense of 263, that the Borg should be able to adapt and become immune to all weapons, and continue to complain that warp ins should be buildable, and a whole host of other "great balancing ideas" that are argued for over and over and over again.  We don't call them fanboys.  On this site, we just call them "special".

Dammit. I guess we're all not safe... can't cure stupid.

EDIT: Are we talking about a certain jetnova here? Don't tell me he showed up here as well! *loses his sanity*

Anyway, I've been thinking about some of your ideas.
The main problem with MMM was that nobody could know of it. AFAIK me and the kid were the only ones to know about it, and only because Dom posted about it at MSFC. I wasn't even on the Staff then. I think as soon as the new build is out, I'll post a news item about it. Should raise some more eyebrows. 

Also, were you serious about people here caring for non-FO mods? I know someone who'd love to tell you people about his latest projects, but he was kind of concerned about the people here possibly showing no interest in such things.

posted on December 11th, 2010, 3:11 pm

There are a number of people who have Stock A2 installations (including myself) and like to try mods every now and again, so I'm sure you won't lack for attention  .

Jetnova incidentally did appear, but unfortunately he managed to cause such a stir that he got himself a temporary ban (the first in FO history ) . Like all forums, FO has it's share of die hard fans of certain ships/factions/characters, which can either result in the aforementioned "balance loveliness" or sometimes cause rethinking of base faction features (which can be a good thing! ) .

posted on December 11th, 2010, 3:19 pm

FO fans would always visit Armada2Files, even if they don't have a stock game; namely people like me, who use stand-alone mods from there to mod FO.

posted on December 11th, 2010, 4:56 pm

There are a number of people who have Stock A2 installations (including myself) and like to try mods every now and again, so I'm sure you won't lack for attention  .

Fantastic. 

Jetnova incidentally did appear, but unfortunately he managed to cause such a stir that he got himself a temporary ban (the first in FO history ) . Like all forums, FO has it's share of die hard fans of certain ships/factions/characters, which can either result in the aforementioned "balance loveliness" or sometimes cause rethinking of base faction features (which can be a good thing! ) .

Oh, wow!  That's just great. Did anyone of you read the email conversation Freyr had with him (and later posted into the FF forums)? Jetnova really disgraced himself with the myriad of lies he fed the staff to get unbanned. Since then, he's been wandering around... FO, MSFC... I think he even went to AFC.

posted on December 11th, 2010, 5:18 pm

Since then, he's been wandering around... FO, MSFC... I think he even went to AFC.

He's also visited the MMM forum on occasion, but hasn't been around for some time.

[Anonymous]

posted on December 12th, 2010, 12:48 am

Last edited by Anonymous on December 12th, 2010, 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Also, were you serious about people here caring for non-FO mods? I know someone who'd love to tell you people about his latest projects, but he was kind of concerned about the people here possibly showing no interest in such things.

Definitely.  I downloaded the B5 mod from A2 files over a year ago and toyed around with it.  It was great to play with Whitestars and minbari cruisers and the like.   Granted, I got a little bored after a while, but if someone made single player missions with it, it would be pretty neat, especially if they were good.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Optec and Doca would love to have your friend post his projects.  If there's enough of an interest, they might even create an A2 subforum in the modding section.  Optec and Doca have always tried to help the A2 community with things like the patch project and any support possible, even with all the jealousy and rumors and misinformation that has been spread about Fleet Ops over the years.  They freely give what they discover, and try to help out when they have time.

One thing I want to point out is that the FO community is very diverse.  We have a strong minority of online players who play FO exclusively.  We usually have between 8-40 players on Tunngle at any given moment, so multiple games are usually going on.  Even Optec and Doca have been surprised that the online community is so strong.  Then there are many small groups of friends who play FO on LAN just having some fun.  Then we've got people who mainly only play instant action, we haven't coaxed all of them out of hiding yet.   Some people aren't into competitive multiplayer, and so some/many of them would definitely try out A2 mods of high quality.

In the long run, say two years from now, the A2 community will probably have to seriously consider converting over to FO.  The only proported benefit right now is that A2 modding is easier to learn.  But by that time, the Hitchhiker's Guide will have EVERYTHING there is to know about FO modding, and has quite a lot of information now.  There probably won't be much difference in the learning curve.  Besides the fact that FO modding has tons of goodies and wonderful graphics, Optec and Doca continue to improve game performance.  They've just introduced a new sound engine, one that many of the top commercial games are using.  You can read about it in the 3.1.4 release notes.

And of course the biggest reason for this kind of switch is simply compatibility issues.  FO will always be compatible with the latest operating systems.  They simply don't have time to keep the patch project up to date AND do their own mod, which has a lot of work ahead to implement the plans that they want to create.  Let's face it:  A2 isn't getting any younger.  The patch project gave her a face lift, but she's starting to sag in places she shouldn't.   A2 was a decent engine for it's time, but unless it gets continually updated, it's simply going to be completely obsolete.  This creates 3 choices for the A2 modder:

1)  Continue modding without looking toward the future, and make mods for a game that nobody can run anymore.

2)  Someone within the A2 community begins to create their own "patch project", to update A2 in a constant manner, continuing to prop up the old gal.  Maybe give her some fake eyelashes, a push-up bra, make the dress a little longer to hide the flaps of skin on her legs, clean the flakes of wax and trim the hair in her ears... grossed out yet?

3)  Bite the bullet and start learning FO by the end of these next two years.  Use the online guide and helpful community, and find ways of integrating FO into A2 files again.

I get that there is a lot of sentimental value in modding stock A2.  And when A2 was new, I'm sure it was the coolest thing ever.  But it's been about 9 years since this game was released, and your fan base is going to get smaller and smaller, because no new features are being released, only models and a few mods.  The reason why we're all excited with FO is that it is a free, commercial level game that constantly puts out new features.  Some of these new features are for players, and some are for modders, so everyone gets a little bit of something.

I know that there is a lot of misinformation out there, but I know for certain that most of the FO community would love to see it and the A2 community become closer.  FO will always be the leader of A2 mods, but that doesn't mean other mods can't exist.  FO has it's own storyline, which means that some ships aren't as prominent as others.  For example, Cardassians will never be a major race in FO due to its story line.  We are CONSTANTLY asked about cardassians.  So an A2 mod that has cardassians as a full race (or an FO mod, for that matter) will get plenty of attention if it's done well.  However, please think about the long term goals of A2 files and those 3 options.  Ultimately, one of those three options will have to be picked.  We all make choices.  But in the end, our choices make us.

Personally, I'm glad that silly poll was put up, because it has triggered events where some of the animosity between the two sites can be cleared up a little, and maybe something good can come from all of this.  If the communities become closer, and A2 files can conjure up some really cool mods and missions, then only good can come from it.  Be careful, though.  Some of those FO "fanboys" may also become "fanboys" of a few A2 mods.  Then you'll really be in a pickle, won't you, A2 modders!   I can't wait to say "I told you so!!!

posted on December 12th, 2010, 12:26 pm

Definitely.  I downloaded the B5 mod from A2 files over a year ago and toyed around with it.  It was great to play with Whitestars and minbari cruisers and the like.   Granted, I got a little bored after a while, but if someone made single player missions with it, it would be pretty neat, especially if they were good.

I've also been playing B5A2 recently, because they reran the series in Germany. Not just one season, THE. ENTIRE. FRIKKIN. SHOW. I may even look into SP missions at a later time. 

And of course the biggest reason for this kind of switch is simply compatibility issues.  FO will always be compatible with the latest operating systems.  They simply don't have time to keep the patch project up to date AND do their own mod, which has a lot of work ahead to implement the plans that they want to create.  Let's face it:  A2 isn't getting any younger.  The patch project gave her a face lift, but she's starting to sag in places she shouldn't.   A2 was a decent engine for it's time, but unless it gets continually updated, it's simply going to be completely obsolete.

Yup, it's the main problem we are facing. Many people are running around with Seven or even Vista right now, and A2 has its problems with them.  Sooner or later we'll all have to do something about it. Of course we can switch to FO, but we can still buy every available copy of Windows 2000 off ebay and pretend that it's still 2001.  (What are you talking about? What's an eyePhone? Is that, like, a Borg thing?)

I'll think about showing you some of the stuff I'm doing for the Wastelands SLTC. Let's see whether people like it. 

posted on December 12th, 2010, 12:28 pm

I always felt there were more FO haters around on A2Files than fanboys...

Oh, and hey Terra_Inc *wave*

posted on December 12th, 2010, 3:36 pm

I never really spent much time on the A2 forums and never realized there was any issue between the communities but I will say that from an outside point of view Fleet ops is really the only mod I found that really blew me away. Now Im no modder and I just started getting into looking for mods a few years ago and I happened across the A2 website, I downloaded several mods from the A2 site, including the B5 mod (which was pretty cool btw). But then I found a little mod called Fleet Operations, so I gave it a try and was AMAZED. After that I learned there was a dedicated webside for the Fleet ops community and actually joined it. Something I was never compelled to do on the A2 site.

Im just saying as someone who is just looking for a good mod, I went through A2 to find some mods, but in the end FO was sooo good and got so much better since I first played it that I never really felt the need to get any more mods. I have since upgraded my PC to win 7 and cant even run a the stock game without tinkering where as FO works without a hitch, I really think FO is the future of Armada 2 (for me at least). I dont hold any animosity twards the A2 people, but I have alsno never been compelled to go back to the A2 website for anything once I discoverd FO, now I have a small LAN group that is slowly getting bigger that plays FO and everyone thinks its awesome what the FO staff has done with this 9 year old game.

posted on December 13th, 2010, 8:45 pm

I feel that my earlier post here deserves an apology. I was rather testy because A2 modders had been harassed by a group of self-proclaimed FO fans and nobody here seemed to be aware that it was going on. That said, I do like the vast majority of people here, I was just disappointed that nobody here bothered to find out where the animosity was coming from.

Anyway, we probably will need to make the switch to FO eventually since most modders don't have the coding knowledge to replicate what the FO team has done to the engine, but it's rather daunting to open up the odf folder and see so many files being used to make a single ship work. Six odfs for the vessel itself at various ranks and another twelve for each weapon on the vessel, assuming that the weapons improve slightly on each rank up. That's 30 odfs for a vessel with two weapons and that's not even including special weapons or the fact that every weapon needs to have damage exceptions for at least two thirds of the ships in the game coded in. A stark contrast to just one odf for the ship and two for each weapon as in A2.

There are also different expectations for releasing a ship here since the majority of the FO community doesn't mod. Here, there is a certain expectation that the ship have ranks, passive abilities, and be able to be simply dropped into the game and work just fine without upsetting the balance too much. At A2Files or MSFC, people generally download the ship so they can use the model and then look at the odf to get an idea of what the creator intended the vessel for and to get a hardpoint map. Then the downloader mods it in themselves, making changes where they want.

Of course, you don't have to include the rank system in your mod so you could leave it out and go back to just a few odfs per ship, but FO is one huge thing to download just so that you can scrap most of it and use the engine.