"I don't build ship (X) because..."

posted on June 19th, 2012, 7:57 pm

A few days ago, Dominus said:

If there are ideas to increase usefulness of ships that are not used often, please feel free to bring them up in their own topics

Initially I wasn't sure about this as the version that's Coming Soon(TM) is going to change many of them. However I've been thinking about it and I believe that it would be a good idea for people to come along and say exactly what they don't like about certain ship classes. Hence this thread.

My aim here is for people to go into some depth as to why they choose to not build certain vessels, preferably those that don't see use in any strategy as those are likeliest the most problematic from that point of view.

Of course, any thread like this will inevitably draw replies from people who disagree with an evaluation. This is, of course, perfectly normal; I just ask that as well as posting the rebuttal, you post your thoughts on a ship you don't build.

posted on June 20th, 2012, 12:31 am

From the Feds

* Sovereign. Too much far aways in the tech tree, and it's special is too much short range.
* Phalanx. It take waaay too long to produce.
* Remore. It require a lot micromanagement to be really useful.
* Saber. Lately I have found it too weak, and prefer to go for Monsoons instead. Those thing are made of paper mache or what?

Warp In

*Descent. Again the special is too short range, I wish it could be like the Generix Singularity Refit, that's cool and practical.

From the Borg

* Pyramid. I prefer to build Spheres or Diamonds or save for the Tactical Cube.

Dominion

* A26. I don't know but I prefer go to S2 and B8.

Klingon.

* Vutpa. Just because Vorchas and Qwadujs manage so well
* Bortas. Don't like the specials the area damage hurt friendly vessels and those research are too deep in the tech tree.

Romulans.

* Serkas. Too expensive and fragile, and damage friendly ships too.
* Shrike. It's a cool vessel but require to much micromanagement to keep them alive.
* Tavara. It's a cool ships too but is too slow and you won't see a ranked Tavara in a online game ever.


This is my humble and noob opinion, someone can correct me if I am wrong.

posted on June 20th, 2012, 2:20 am

From the Feds
...This is my humble and noob opinion, someone can correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong.

Just kidding, majority of the vessels you mentioned are being build regularly btw., seen all of them being used properly and very useful the past 10 games.
(Serkas, Remore and Saber are very very very rare though)



I can only think of one ship i really don't like:
- the Newton - i only build them to repair nearby borg allies, but for myself... NEVER. I always manage to get them killed, especially with current targeting. That stupid ship loves to suicide, or fly into the middle of nowhere. I'm pretty sure the crew consists of brainless zombies or something like that.

The rest of ships i don't like or rarely build will pretty much be useful again (i hope) due new targeting.

- Serkas - though could need changes. Never seen someone, including Dominus, being really efficient with them.
They're actually the perfect hit & run vessel, but get killed too easily, are quite expensive, and can't really strike that well from distance with current lag in larger games, they become just painfully hard to use.

posted on June 20th, 2012, 2:49 am

- the Newton - i only build them to repair nearby borg allies, but for myself... NEVER. I always manage to get them killed, especially with current targeting. That stupid ship loves to suicide, or fly into the middle of nowhere. I'm pretty sure the crew consists of brainless zombies or something like that.

The rest of ships i don't like or rarely build will pretty much be useful again (i hope) due new targeting.

- Serkas - though could need changes. Never seen someone, including Dominus, being really efficient with them.
They're actually the perfect hit & run vessel, but get killed too easily, are quite expensive, and can't really strike that well from distance with current lag in larger games, they become just painfully hard to use.

Against the AI Newtons are useful but only in you put them in Green Alert, High Autonomy and research all it's refits against humans player I guess they will be targeted first and killed but the AI is more dumb.

About the Serkas I agree, I would like to see a replay of someone using the Serkas.

EDIT: a word

posted on June 21st, 2012, 4:19 am

I wanted a couple of other people to post after my topic start, as I didn't want to look like I was talking to myself!

Now someone has, incoming wall of text on the Nova...

The Nova is one of Mayson's special ships, and at first blush it looks quite tempting to build. It's fast, the passive is damage-focused, it has a special that buffs members of its fleet, and who can't help but cast a forward-looking eye to the Veteran ability of +2 warp-in slots?

So why is it rarely built? For me, the primary reasons are positioning, fragility, and good old "not as good as it looks" syndrome.

Firstly, positioning. The Nova is Chassis 2. This fact alone goes against the usual Mayson tactical doctrine of relying on Monsoon and Intrepid tanks for warp-ins and Excelsior IIs. Mayson players usually don't linger at Chassis 2; it's treated as a stepping stone to Tech 3 and Defiants. Even if the Mayson player does decide to stay for a while at Tech 2, the Nova competes for shipyard space with the Akira, a competition it loses as the Fed player probably invested the resources into chassis research for more density* in their fleet.

Then there's the fragility factor. The 24 Defence listed in the Guide doesn't look too bad, and surely there's the Mayson bonus on top? Actually, no, the 24 Defence is with the Mayson bonus, and that's not the least of its problems. The Nova in 3.2.6 is a Small Destroyer with a passive that means it takes more damage from pulse weapons. Klingon players should rightly laugh when they see this vessel, as B'rels and K'Vorts eat them up. Romulans don't have quite as easy a time with their Star Yard pulse ships, but phase-plated Rhienns can certainly hold their own.

Finally, there's the "not as good as it looks" effect. The Nova has elements that generally look good but, when combined, relegate the ship to mediocrity. The passive, speed, and special ability all suggest it should be used aggressively in fleets, but it loses out on that role to the Akira and the special uses Supply to boot**, and its fragility means it'll be a rare thing that you get to see the officer supply kick-back or veteran warp-in slot increase. The speed also suggest raiding use, but Monsoons and Intrepids are more suited to the role due to better durability and the nigh-guaranteed kill specials those classes have.

So how would I improve it in 3.2.6? Or the next version of Fleet Ops?

In 3.2.6, I would probably just leave the stats as-is and move the ship to Chassis 1. For the next version, I'd probably want to see the ship re-examined from the ground up and re-imagined as something more akin to an advanced scout vessel.

* Density here means greater offence / defence values per ship, without taking passives into account; this is opposed to mass, which refers to the number of vessels in a fleet.

** Feds have to be very careful with powers that spend Supply to avoid having production stall at an inconvenient moment. Yes, there's warp-in, but Fed players can't rely on that alone.

posted on June 21st, 2012, 6:27 am

I wanted a couple of other people to post after my topic start, as I didn't want to look like I was talking to myself!

Now someone has, incoming wall of text on the Nova...

The Nova is one of Mayson's special ships, and at first blush it looks quite tempting to build. It's fast, the passive is damage-focused, it has a special that buffs members of its fleet, and who can't help but cast a forward-looking eye to the Veteran ability of +2 warp-in slots?

So why is it rarely built? For me, the primary reasons are positioning, fragility, and good old "not as good as it looks" syndrome.

Firstly, positioning. The Nova is Chassis 2. This fact alone goes against the usual Mayson tactical doctrine of relying on Monsoon and Intrepid tanks for warp-ins and Excelsior IIs. Mayson players usually don't linger at Chassis 2; it's treated as a stepping stone to Tech 3 and Defiants. Even if the Mayson player does decide to stay for a while at Tech 2, the Nova competes for shipyard space with the Akira, a competition it loses as the Fed player probably invested the resources into chassis research for more density* in their fleet.

Then there's the fragility factor. The 24 Defence listed in the Guide doesn't look too bad, and surely there's the Mayson bonus on top? Actually, no, the 24 Defence is with the Mayson bonus, and that's not the least of its problems. The Nova in 3.2.6 is a Small Destroyer with a passive that means it takes more damage from pulse weapons. Klingon players should rightly laugh when they see this vessel, as B'rels and K'Vorts eat them up. Romulans don't have quite as easy a time with their Star Yard pulse ships, but phase-plated Rhienns can certainly hold their own.

Finally, there's the "not as good as it looks" effect. The Nova has elements that generally look good but, when combined, relegate the ship to mediocrity. The passive, speed, and special ability all suggest it should be used aggressively in fleets, but it loses out on that role to the Akira and the special uses Supply to boot**, and its fragility means it'll be a rare thing that you get to see the officer supply kick-back or veteran warp-in slot increase. The speed also suggest raiding use, but Monsoons and Intrepids are more suited to the role due to better durability and the nigh-guaranteed kill specials those classes have.

So how would I improve it in 3.2.6? Or the next version of Fleet Ops?

In 3.2.6, I would probably just leave the stats as-is and move the ship to Chassis 1. For the next version, I'd probably want to see the ship re-examined from the ground up and re-imagined as something more akin to an advanced scout vessel.

* Density here means greater offence / defence values per ship, without taking passives into account; this is opposed to mass, which refers to the number of vessels in a fleet.

** Feds have to be very careful with powers that spend Supply to avoid having production stall at an inconvenient moment. Yes, there's warp-in, but Fed players can't rely on that alone.

I oddly have to disagree with most of this.. The Nova is a monster IMO.. Its 24 defense is plenty for mid-game combat when it has monsoons around to draw auto target Fire. And its special is a pure rape button. seriosly... lol.. its causes itself and 4 ships around to fire like 10 torpedos each... it can make intrepids and akiras.. durable as they are.. into absolute beasts. if you micro the special well wnough to you can keep the constsnt torp-MG going. + you have its speed.. which lets it get out way to much. the other thing that is tempting about its speed is that you can add it to you monsoon/intrepid fleets for an overall boost in you torp offense, without the bad slowdown you get from akiras
.. really i think the Nova is perfect where it is.. you don't see it often and thats a good thing.. what it brings to the table is just to deadly to make more accessable.

As for what i don't build... ummmm.... Idk.. Veqlareh? The klingon taq-roja arty vessel. i find its to hevy on supply for a 14 or so defense vessel. The Tueto, its just not beefy enough to be worth 4 worpin slots. + its offesive output is to unpredicable when combating moving targets. T-15.. its just feels like its built to much for early game without being acessable enough.. The Leahval.. i feel bad using God ships against my opponet. sigularity refit.. it just feels to out of the way to truly be worth it... but i love having them. Many "it feels that way" lol.

posted on June 21st, 2012, 7:05 am

Considering the Romulan faction is not supposed to be for beginners, there not much wrong with the ship itself; though it needs a lot of attention and is difficult to use against mobile cloak detect due to its speed. The main problem lies in its position in the tech tree which is a dead end in this version of the game if you do not intend to proceed to warbirds (combining more than one expensive strategy thus relying on even less standard combat ships). Also a slight reduction in build time would be desirable.

posted on July 3rd, 2012, 7:25 pm

Not sure how many replays of me playing feds are around. But I relied heavily on remores at times especially against other federation players. Novas make a great fast raiding ship to buff intrepids with monsoon support. Akiras are good main line bruisers who live with the warp ins and other slower ships of the fleet.

posted on July 16th, 2012, 10:04 am

I'd also mention the VeQlaragh here. Even though it has its uses against Borg, I think the Chargh can do just the same as Veqlaragh for a much lower price(namely stopping enemies from escaping). Additionally the Chargh has a higher damage ouput and lasts longer.
If you're not aiming on a low tech only strategie the VeQ'laragh is simply not worth it.

The Serkas has similar problems. It's funny, since this ship is the only reason why Romulan AI kicks ass . But for human players you can't afford more than one or two of these and have to guard them very carefully. Nevertheless I have seen those ships in 3v3s appearing behind enemy lines and snipe mining stations - so even this ship has its limited special role - there is just not often the necessity to fill this role.

I've pointed out quite often that I dislike everything about the ChonaQ. It has a weird position in the tech tree, it can't cloak while being slow, it looks crappy and once it lost all of its special energy its high damage output decreases to zero.

Someone mentioned the T15 - I think this ship is the only thing Dominion has to withstand Klingons early on, since KVorts and KBQ eat up anything that comes out of the small yard(B8 being the exception - but that one is more expensive than a T15). It is cheap, it is fast, long ranged, has a good passive - a good base line ship.

Some other ships with problems:
Torp Rhienns - overpriced und too low defense - Dis Rhienn can do everything better but killing stations
C-11 - defense too low
Pyramid - I like to use it every now and then, but I think it costs 20CC too much
Eresis - Nothing wrong with the vessel itself, it's just for the wrong avatar - Helevs supply bonus combined with the strong small rom ships is just too good to move to warbirds
Teutoburg - can't compete with the basic warp in slot, give her slot an additional steamrunner and it might be worth it

posted on July 18th, 2012, 6:16 am

For the most part I agree with most of the assertions here. A lot of the ships mentioned here are ones that sound good in theory, but in all practical uses just don't quite live up to their expectations. I especially agree with examples like the Torpedo Rhienn, while I've got to say I've absolutely had fun with a pair of Serkas eating miners and stations .


Luckily, I feel confident saying that all of the lessons learned from the use of these vessels are being considered as the new version shapes up . Truly. Many people here don't think Dom and the other Devs listen to these kinds of threads, but they really do .

Rest assured as well that, when Boggz thinks something is imbalanced or broken, he never lets Dom hear the end of it

posted on July 18th, 2012, 2:59 pm

While you're badgering him about balance, put in a word about more dev blogs, too!

posted on July 19th, 2012, 1:07 pm

we will we will!