Fantastic Game - Suggestions

posted on November 20th, 2013, 9:31 pm

By 'backwater worlds', I was talking about worlds lower-priority (and probably forgotten by most in the Federation) than the Core worlds, founding planets and Earth. Not the potential allies which, as Picards said, Starfleet needs as many of as they can get.

I really doubt a bunch of hippy farmers who rejected technology and want to live in the middle of a nebula-like patch of space are really going to be a useful ally.

posted on November 20th, 2013, 10:15 pm

Which explains why Starfleet never went to them for an alliance, only to steal the fountain of youth they happened to live on.

posted on November 20th, 2013, 10:21 pm

Also, the Sovi isn't that shiny. Next gen Explorer was probably already on the drawing board.

next generation of explorer ship is luna class prototype the Titan, with Riker as captain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Titan#U.S.S._Titan

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Luna_class

i am lucky, that i had a time to read all 10 novels. Very good reading.

posted on November 20th, 2013, 10:48 pm

Also, the Sovi isn't that shiny. Next gen Explorer was probably already on the drawing board.

next generation of explorer ship is luna class prototype the Titan, with Riker as captain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Titan#U.S.S._Titan

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Luna_class

i am lucky, that i had a time to read all 10 novels. Very good reading.

Nah, the Luna is much more science based then actual pure explorer and multi-role like the Galaxy and Sovereign were. The Vesta also suffers from this problem too for being way too "science-like" to actual make it a credible explorer-type starship.

I really hate most post-Voyager ship designs, including the Vesta and Luna because its getting away from Starfleet's traditional hull geometry. The Luna not so much because of the elliptical saucer but the god-awful tiny pod stolen from the nebula, akira and before that Miranda just ruins the look of this class. I always take it off in STO.

posted on November 20th, 2013, 11:34 pm

Pre-Nemesis there should have been (3) or (5), depending how you count. For Nemesis, I guess there were (4) or (5) more (again, depending how you count twin tube launchers) for a total of (7) or (10). This is much more in-line with battleship specs, especially considering the total of (16) Type XII phaser arrays come Nemesis. Compare that to (2) and (12) of more inferior types on the Galaxy.

The point I tried to make, which wasn't entirely clear and for that I'm sorry, is that the number of weapons hardpoints isn't necessarily the best arbiter of strength. Type and coverage are at least as important, and for phasers the number of arrays may not be as important as the total array length the ship has. The Sovereign may have more advanced phasers, in slightly more emplacements, but I'd argue that the Galaxy's phasers are more than respectable for a ship its size.

Same with the torpedo launchers; most of the Sovereigns tubes are fairly compact, possibly reflecting a design philosophy change towards having a greater number of simpler launchers (better redundancy, for a start). It doesn't necessarily mean that these tubes are individually as capable of the volume of fire the Galaxy's launchers are (there are reasons Starfleet may have chosen to keep the number of obvious torpedo tubes down; if you're not practising gunboat diplomacy, then additional weapon emplacements could be a liability when trying to reassure new species of your peaceful intent).

Two other things people seem to be overlooking:

1) The Galaxy Class project will have included lessons from the lengthy Federation-Cardassian war that we know took place prior to the TNG period. Even if the Federation had the technological edge demonstrated in "The Wounded" at that time, engagements would have been exhaustively analysed and ship designs adjusted to reflect it.

2) As Starfleet's premiere ships at the time they were built, they were designed to go into any situation including skirmishes, often alone, and give their crews the best chance of coming out alive. In combat, the best way to do that is to win.

I really hate most post-Voyager ship designs, including the Vesta and Luna because its getting away from Starfleet's traditional hull geometry. The Luna not so much because of the elliptical saucer but the god-awful tiny pod stolen from the nebula, akira and before that Miranda just ruins the look of this class. I always take it off in STO.

What you say is one of the reasons why I like STO's Odyssey class so much. It's not perfect (the forward part of the secondary hull where the necks join jars a bit for me), but it hits the primary design notes really well and the Aquarius escort idea extends the capabilities of auxiliary craft even further than the Captain's Yacht of the Galaxy / Sovereign classes and the aeroshuttle of the Intrepid class.

posted on November 21st, 2013, 2:08 pm

The point I tried to make, which wasn't entirely clear and for that I'm sorry, is that the number of weapons hardpoints isn't necessarily the best arbiter of strength. Type and coverage are at least as important, and for phasers the number of arrays may not be as important as the total array length the ship has. The Sovereign may have more advanced phasers, in slightly more emplacements, but I'd argue that the Galaxy's phasers are more than respectable for a ship its size.

Same with the torpedo launchers; most of the Sovereigns tubes are fairly compact, possibly reflecting a design philosophy change towards having a greater number of simpler launchers (better redundancy, for a start). It doesn't necessarily mean that these tubes are individually as capable of the volume of fire the Galaxy's launchers are (there are reasons Starfleet may have chosen to keep the number of obvious torpedo tubes down; if you're not practising gunboat diplomacy, then additional weapon emplacements could be a liability when trying to reassure new species of your peaceful intent).

Two other things people seem to be overlooking:

1) The Galaxy Class project will have included lessons from the lengthy Federation-Cardassian war that we know took place prior to the TNG period. Even if the Federation had the technological edge demonstrated in "The Wounded" at that time, engagements would have been exhaustively analysed and ship designs adjusted to reflect it.

2) As Starfleet's premiere ships at the time they were built, they were designed to go into any situation including skirmishes, often alone, and give their crews the best chance of coming out alive. In combat, the best way to do that is to win.

I understand. And I do agree that the number of hardpoints is not the sole indicator, even though that aspect certainly has bearing. Coverage within firing arcs is very important, but we know that many, if not most, Starfleet ships have near 360 degree coverage, especially the newer (TNG onward) ships. Type also is important, because it usually reflects the size of the ship and the related size of its power source (and the intrinsic power of the weapon itself).

The Galaxy class was very adequately covered, both in firing arc and armament. However, it was designed before the Borg were encountered. Since it is generally taken that Starfleet began producing "warships" after this event, we can assume that the Galaxy-class (at least as we see in TNG) is less capable as a warship than the Sovereign. Again, perhaps this seems obvious because the Sovereign is newer. But compared on something of an even footing, the Sovereign has at least the same coverage areas as the Galaxy and has a smaller frame which to cover.

As far as phaser strips go, theoretically greater net length equals more firing arcs. Perhaps... but that depends on the individual ship. The Intrepid may have less overall strip length but still cover the same 345 degrees as a Galaxy. The Prometheus phaser strips may have a less overall length than those of the Galaxy, but cover 468 degrees (130%) of the circular area around the ship - by having more individual strips. While these are just arbitrary values, they illustrate my point.

I would argue the opposite of what you said. The thing to keep in mind with phaser strips is that, however long they may be, you can still only have one beam firing from a strip at a time. (At least, that is the way I have always seen it work in Star Trek.) This means that length is less important than number. I go back to the Prometheus as an example: why would they design it with a vertical bank of strips running down from the bridge if they could have just continued the main strip around the saucer?


It cannot be so that there are more strips for when the MVAM is engaged, because they all stay on the same piece of the separated ship.


I believe that the number of strips is more important than how long they are. Obviously, type is important to consider too. At the time, Type X or whatever the Galaxy had were the best around.

posted on November 21st, 2013, 3:15 pm

...
... The thing to keep in mind with phaser strips is that, however long they may be, you can still only have one beam firing from a strip at a time. (At least, that is the way I have always seen it work in Star Trek.) This means that length is less important than number....

What's this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734afLFPds#t=3m33s
I also remember other episodes where a Galaxy fires multiple beams. One could assume the strip still consists of multiple phaser "guns", or any similar mechanic, and they kinda got the option to supercharge a specific one.
Reminds me a bit of an RTS mechanic i've once seen (i think it was in one of the CnC games).

Anyways, i would still say, even though the Galaxy is more a multi purpose ship than a warship, it might be one of the most powerful ships. It's usually "wasting" the majority of it's energy for the huge amount of crew, it's recreational facilities, and all sorts of science equipment. In times of war the majority of the crew is not needed, nor these power draining facilities, which leads to quite an energy overhead, which probably can be re-routed to the phasers and shields. So with "optimizations" i would still rate it above a Vorcha or similar vessels in terms of firepower and shields.

But well, it's an outdated ship, no match for Sovereign or similar.



P.S.: can we please all agree on NOT to use the Prometheus for ANY arguments? Come on, that ship doesn't make any sense at all.

posted on November 21st, 2013, 3:39 pm

...
... The thing to keep in mind with phaser strips is that, however long they may be, you can still only have one beam firing from a strip at a time. (At least, that is the way I have always seen it work in Star Trek.) This means that length is less important than number....

What's this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734afLFPds#t=3m33s
I also remember other episodes where a Galaxy fires multiple beams. One could assume the strip still consists of multiple phaser "guns", or any similar mechanic, and they kinda got the option to supercharge a specific one.
Reminds me a bit of an RTS mechanic i've once seen (i think it was in one of the CnC games).

Anyways, i would still say, even though the Galaxy is more a multi purpose ship than a warship, it might be one of the most powerful ships. It's usually "wasting" the majority of it's energy for the huge amount of crew, it's recreational facilities, and all sorts of science equipment. In times of war the majority of the crew is not needed, nor these power draining facilities, which leads to quite an energy overhead, which probably can be re-routed to the phasers and shields. So with "optimizations" i would still rate it above a Vorcha or similar vessels in terms of firepower and shields.

But well, it's an outdated ship, no match for Sovereign or similar.



P.S.: can we please all agree on NOT to use the Prometheus for ANY arguments? Come on, that ship doesn't make any sense at all.

Sorry but you want to say the Prometheus doesn't make sense. Eh hello, have you seen the Tutoburg Class in this game or the Descent Class. The Descent is a glorified Sovereign retrofit with nebula parts kitbashed on it and the Tutoburg is so kind of wierd Luna derivative.

posted on November 21st, 2013, 3:59 pm

What's this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734afLFPds#t=3m33s

I also remember other episodes where a Galaxy fires multiple beams. One could assume the strip still consists of multiple phaser "guns", or any similar mechanic, and they kinda got the option to supercharge a specific one.
Reminds me a bit of an RTS mechanic i've once seen (i think it was in one of the CnC games).

I have not watched that much of DS9, so I have never seen that clip, but cool! That is the only such example that I have ever seen. Is that enough evidence to say that all ships can do it? I don't know. I suppose that is up for discussion.

I was going to throw in the part from Best of Both Worlds when the Enterprise fires all those pulse shots from the main array and it just ends up sparking all over the cube. That was supposed to be some special modification anyway and it obviously didn't work. I thought it was more of a gimmick anyway.

P.S.: can we please all agree on NOT to use the Prometheus for ANY arguments? Come on, that ship doesn't make any sense at all.

Well, we could... but it IS in the Star Trek universe, it IS canon and it IS (supposedly) the most powerful Federation ship.

So what do we do here? Even if many of us agree that the design makes little real sense (I have become one of those), where do we draw the line for what we count and don't count from canon Trek? Many people go through an unbelievable amount of analysis and supposition to rationalize why minor changes or inconsistencies occur in Trek. If we can at once rationalize and extrapolate from the universe to justify our arguments here and yet completely discount a whole class of canon ship because we don't like it ... well, like I said, where is the line?

I could just as easily discount your linked example if I wanted to. Since it does not reflect the general convention of phaser use or doesn't make sense based on that point, I should write your example off?

I am not saying either method is more right (going strictly by canon or using educated supposition), just asking the question. It does matter.

This line of discussion (about the Galaxy's capabilities) really only pertains to canon Trek anyway, not Fleet Ops. So inclusion of the Prometheus really shouldn't matter, right?

posted on November 21st, 2013, 5:54 pm

There's nothing in canon to suggest the Prometheus is the most POWERFUL ship. It's evidenced as being ADVANCED, but that's not the same thing. It means it's clever enough to split into three and fight by mostly-automated computer control, but that doesn't make it more powerful, just reduces it's manpower requirements.

It was also shown to be a prototype, not a ship which was made into a full-production class. Although other classes have been demonstrated with only a single example (i.e. Sovereign class; we've only seen the Ent-E), but we saw that ship performing it's expected normal role. We only saw the Prometheus during* it's testing run. Therefore it does make sense for it to be left out, as Fleet Ops is about building fleets of full-production ships (possible exception of the Tavara).

*...well, during it's hijack from...

posted on November 21st, 2013, 6:19 pm

Sorry but you want to say the Prometheus doesn't make sense. Eh hello, have you seen the Tutoburg Class in this game or the Descent Class. The Descent is a glorified Sovereign retrofit with nebula parts kitbashed on it and the Tutoburg is so kind of wierd Luna derivative.

I don't understand why you have issues with the FleetOps ships. They're very well done both gameplay-wise and model-wise. the Decent actually might be my favorite ship in the game. If you were to create a vanilla Next Generation game the Decent would have no place in the world. However, it would make absolutely no sense if new ship models were not added to a Star Trek game that takes place 30 years after Next Generation.

Also, I don't exactly understand how bashing FleetOps ships makes the Prometheus a logically sound ship design.

posted on November 21st, 2013, 6:32 pm

There's nothing in canon to suggest the Prometheus is the most POWERFUL ship. It's evidenced as being ADVANCED, but that's not the same thing. It means it's clever enough to split into three and fight by mostly-automated computer control, but that doesn't make it more powerful, just reduces it's manpower requirements.

It was also shown to be a prototype, not a ship which was made into a full-production class. Although other classes have been demonstrated with only a single example (i.e. Sovereign class; we've only seen the Ent-E), but we saw that ship performing it's expected normal role. We only saw the Prometheus during* it's testing run. Therefore it does make sense for it to be left out, as Fleet Ops is about building fleets of full-production ships (possible exception of the Tavara).

*...well, during it's hijack from...

My point was that it is relevant to the phaser discussion I was having, or any discussion pertaining to canon. And the fact that it is the most advanced ship implies that it is one of, if not the, most powerful Federation ship. Memory Alpha, while not exclusively canon, corroborates my statement. (See Defensive Systems: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prometheus_class) The fact that it is a prototype has no bearing on my previous discussion.

If we are talking Fleet Ops, then no, it isn't relevant... as I said before.

posted on November 21st, 2013, 7:42 pm

Sorry but you want to say the Prometheus doesn't make sense. Eh hello, have you seen the Tutoburg Class in this game or the Descent Class. The Descent is a glorified Sovereign retrofit with nebula parts kitbashed on it and the Tutoburg is so kind of wierd Luna derivative.

I don't understand why you have issues with the FleetOps ships. They're very well done both gameplay-wise and model-wise. the Decent actually might be my favorite ship in the game. If you were to create a vanilla Next Generation game the Decent would have no place in the world. However, it would make absolutely no sense if new ship models were not added to a Star Trek game that takes place 30 years after Next Generation.

Also, I don't exactly understand how bashing FleetOps ships makes the Prometheus a logically sound ship design.

BECAUSE, I like the idea of Fleet Operations but the execution really sucks, its very based in favoritism towards certain canon vessels and ignoring others while promoting wierd new kitbashed designs which look like they belong in the ship graveyard scene from Wolf 359.

Fleet Operations would have been a much superior version of Armada, had they actually stuck to original source material, not tried to set it so far in the future (STO's problem as well) and kept to original and canon ship designs. Its fine to have a liberty with the alien races (the lack of the Cardassians and 8472 was an annoyance despite the illogical reasons to remove them) because we DON'T KNOW much about them but we have LOADS of examples of Federation ships so they did not need to spoil their mod with fanboi kitbashes.

posted on November 21st, 2013, 10:10 pm

I've been trying to stay out of this, but I had to respond to this bit.

Its fine to have a liberty with the alien races (the lack of the Cardassians and 8472 was an annoyance despite the illogical reasons to remove them)

It makes perfect sense that the Cardassians and 8472 wouldn't be featured. The Cardassian Empire was completely demolished during DS9. A large portion of their population was killed, most of their armada was destroyed, and their worlds were razed. It took them centuries to establish their empire and it's pretty much gone. They can not recover in just thirty years.

As for Species 8472, they decided to leave normal space and return to fluidic space. The Borg were the only ones who could open a rift and they want nothing to do with them anymore. As long as the Borg don't want to bring them back, then they won't be in the Milky Way.

I would also suggest that this thread be locked. It's not really contributing anything anymore and is just a long rant about how great the Galaxy is and how stupid the devs are for not including it as a buildable vessel.

posted on November 22nd, 2013, 4:07 am

What's this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d734afLFPds#t=3m33s

I also remember other episodes where a Galaxy fires multiple beams. One could assume the strip still consists of multiple phaser "guns", or any similar mechanic, and they kinda got the option to supercharge a specific one.
Reminds me a bit of an RTS mechanic i've once seen (i think it was in one of the CnC games).

I have not watched that much of DS9, so I have never seen that clip, but cool! That is the only such example that I have ever seen. Is that enough evidence to say that all ships can do it? I don't know. I suppose that is up for discussion.

I was going to throw in the part from Best of Both Worlds when the Enterprise fires all those pulse shots from the main array and it just ends up sparking all over the cube. That was supposed to be some special modification anyway and it obviously didn't work. I thought it was more of a gimmick anyway.

The scene in the referred to video excerpt I think of as the "fuck you, Galor" manoeuvre

Same video, 1m14s, excerpted from The Best of Both Worlds. Enterprise clearly showed firing phasers from not only the saucer dorsal array, but also from the two nacelle pylon arrays. This was during the first engagement when they found that phaser frequencies in a high narrow band did have some effect. The "antimatter spread" fired from the separated saucer section during the later operation to recapture Locutus!Picard was a form of electronic warfare, to keep the Borg's attention away from the shuttle.

I suspect that sequences like that were rarely used for several reasons, not least of which is that they added expense without adding much to the visual impact of the scene. It was valid for TBOBW as a way to suggest a heightened assault effort against the Borg vessel.

Edited in: while not discussed on-screen, supplemental materials refer to phaser strips comprising of a substantial number of emitter elements. When a given strip is to be fired, the requisite number of elements are discharged onto the strip towards the element that most directly faces the target which acts as the directing element. The beam's aim is refined with an electromagnetic field. Longer strips are presumed to be more powerful as they are able to discharge more elements into a given shot. The appearance of the Ambassador class with multiple short strips on its saucer section also indicates that the Galaxy's long strips are a technological improvement over the older ship.

It was also shown to be a prototype, not a ship which was made into a full-production class. Although other classes have been demonstrated with only a single example (i.e. Sovereign class; we've only seen the Ent-E), but we saw that ship performing it's expected normal role. We only saw the Prometheus during* it's testing run. Therefore it does make sense for it to be left out, as Fleet Ops is about building fleets of full-production ships (possible exception of the Tavara).

*...well, during it's hijack from...

A Prometheus-class vessel was shown in the Federation fleet during Endgame (picture on Memory Alpha). Archer also saw at least one when he was taken to the 26th Century to witness the battle of Procyon V. This latter deployment was in a future timeline whose existence is now in doubt, but it's still a canon appearance.

I rather like the class, too. It's visually interesting as a rare example of a four-nacelle classes (others being the Constellation Class and the Cheyenne class) and its role (long range tactical assignments) is of interest as it's reflective of Starfleet's greater emphasis on defence since the revelation of the Borg threat in Q Who.

Still wish it was a mainstream part of Fleet Ops. MVAM can be engineered out the same way the original Excelsior's transwarp drive was; it turned out to not be practical, but the overall design was more than good enough for serial production.

Oh, and as for the vertically stacked short strips on the dorsal saucer section of the Prometheus? No idea what they're for, but they appear to be textured differently from the adjacent phaser strip. I'd say they may be involved in the regenerative shielding.