Dominion's turn
Which race do you like most? What do you like - what you don't like? Discuss it here.
1, 2
posted on February 23rd, 2012, 5:03 am
Last edited by godsvoice on February 23rd, 2012, 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
It depends. Size of map. Size of fleet (ie. the non-borg fleet). Stage of game. Etc.
I was actually recently having a discussion with someone about a similar topic over a game of chess and openings for centre gameplay. To what degree it can be literally transferred to FO not entirely sure, but I think the major points will stick. The main ideas that that conversation would transfer over with would be over control vs occupation.
I would agree, that 1 Borg cube, might, control the entire map. So long as the enemy fleet does not number 30+ ships, or two fleets of 30+ ships. But yes, that 1 Borg cube does control a large portion of the map, simply by advancing on a location it can inflict heavy damage.
But things will quickly get fuzzy.
1 Borg cube cannot occupy an entire map.
Controlling a map and occupying the map are two different things. The matter of control is heavily influenced by the speed of units to attack a region, or exert their influence. If I have a unit like 1 borg C that is very powerful, but very slow, while its influence is undeniable, my ability to utilize may become suspect or conditional. Occupation is much more simpler. To occupy a location, you have to actually be there.
Especially if the opponent has the ability to control and occupy the map with significant force even if with more minor pieces.
In FO, it is more complicated for an obvious number of reasons, but a main huge difference in the comparison is the ability to add new units. In chess you start with 32 pieces and it goes down. In FO you start with very few, and it escalates to critical mass.
We might also look at control as being the degree to which my opponent must acknowledge my presence.
I believe my post was mostly concerned with cc recuperation. after 130 ccs are spent, the borg player will not exert any more foreseeable influence, until at least 50 (sphere) to a minor degree, or more likely to 90 (diamond) much more of a threat, but very time consuming to reach, or finally 130 is reached again, and resources have been gathered to build another cube.
In the meantime, I might be able to do any number of things, because while the cube can influence my decisions, and control parts of the board, it simply can't be everyone. It can not defend and attack. Is it enough to win you the game, is what I am finding myself asking when I start building cubes. Against AI, depending on stage of game, 5 is really nice, 11 is almost guaranteed.
Erg, sorry, this is dragging on. Mostly because there is no definitive point, just the outline of the constraints placed on borg with only 1 unit to exert influence and control. It can't be attacking me, and defending its own base. So an opponent might be able to split up a fleet and attack two expansions. There is simply no counter to this. Cube will have to commit to either a defensive role, or offensive. If it goes all out offensive, and I go all out offensive. Who wins after both bases and expansions have been demolished or pillaged?
Yeah, I'm just going to stop, this post started out nice, but I'm a little distracted, have to work in the morning, so should be off to bed. but I think I wrote enough quality content to get enough points into the conversation. I think.
I was actually recently having a discussion with someone about a similar topic over a game of chess and openings for centre gameplay. To what degree it can be literally transferred to FO not entirely sure, but I think the major points will stick. The main ideas that that conversation would transfer over with would be over control vs occupation.
I would agree, that 1 Borg cube, might, control the entire map. So long as the enemy fleet does not number 30+ ships, or two fleets of 30+ ships. But yes, that 1 Borg cube does control a large portion of the map, simply by advancing on a location it can inflict heavy damage.
But things will quickly get fuzzy.
1 Borg cube cannot occupy an entire map.
Controlling a map and occupying the map are two different things. The matter of control is heavily influenced by the speed of units to attack a region, or exert their influence. If I have a unit like 1 borg C that is very powerful, but very slow, while its influence is undeniable, my ability to utilize may become suspect or conditional. Occupation is much more simpler. To occupy a location, you have to actually be there.
Especially if the opponent has the ability to control and occupy the map with significant force even if with more minor pieces.
In FO, it is more complicated for an obvious number of reasons, but a main huge difference in the comparison is the ability to add new units. In chess you start with 32 pieces and it goes down. In FO you start with very few, and it escalates to critical mass.
We might also look at control as being the degree to which my opponent must acknowledge my presence.
I believe my post was mostly concerned with cc recuperation. after 130 ccs are spent, the borg player will not exert any more foreseeable influence, until at least 50 (sphere) to a minor degree, or more likely to 90 (diamond) much more of a threat, but very time consuming to reach, or finally 130 is reached again, and resources have been gathered to build another cube.
In the meantime, I might be able to do any number of things, because while the cube can influence my decisions, and control parts of the board, it simply can't be everyone. It can not defend and attack. Is it enough to win you the game, is what I am finding myself asking when I start building cubes. Against AI, depending on stage of game, 5 is really nice, 11 is almost guaranteed.
Erg, sorry, this is dragging on. Mostly because there is no definitive point, just the outline of the constraints placed on borg with only 1 unit to exert influence and control. It can't be attacking me, and defending its own base. So an opponent might be able to split up a fleet and attack two expansions. There is simply no counter to this. Cube will have to commit to either a defensive role, or offensive. If it goes all out offensive, and I go all out offensive. Who wins after both bases and expansions have been demolished or pillaged?
Yeah, I'm just going to stop, this post started out nice, but I'm a little distracted, have to work in the morning, so should be off to bed. but I think I wrote enough quality content to get enough points into the conversation. I think.
posted on February 23rd, 2012, 5:09 am
godsvoice wrote:1 Borg cube cannot occupy an entire map.
You see but at its most effecent, It does not need to. The map comes to you at that point. get my point? a single cube in a multiplayer games at any level is nearly a death blow to the head, not to mention at that level the borg can spam long range dodes or medium torp adaptors, and lots of them, to fullfill that need.
posted on February 23rd, 2012, 10:13 pm
Last edited by godsvoice on February 23rd, 2012, 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hmm. I don't think that I do get your point.
1 borg cube cannot occupy an entire map. It does not need to, ... I see this in context, but not necessarily sure I know what way you are intending it.
I stated earlier how control stems from a necessary response from your opponent. By having that cube, I agree, that control is conveyed without it necessarily occupying the entire map. But this is simply now turning into more tactics and strategy. I have to respond to that cube. But it depends. The smaller the map, the more that response is stressed, and therefore benefits borg player. But I do not see how 1 borg cube can exert control effectively on a 25k map. It is very slow. Very powerful, but if there are 4 expansions, it can't possibly attack them all.
Hence, it comes down to what I can do. I am assuming the fleet qualities are comparative. If in online gameplay every time a borg cube comes out it basically wins, that is most unfortunate. It would be nice to have it where borg can use their late game units, while at the same time, other factions can return in kind with 15+ battleships.
I was going to get into turrets but decided not to. So Borg can go into dodes and relays, this is strict occupation, but far less control. You control a certain area, and beyond that, the only real control you inflict on the rest of the map, is that the passage of units have to consider that area as 'yours'. So certain avenues of travel may be constrained. But turrets, whether numerous or more powerful, occupy and control a particular area. But do not really have huge influence like similar resources put into fleets. Still, a borg player who has several relays, is much more able to send his cube out and about without fear of inadequate defences.
And thats just the thing, right after you build that borg cube, you are almost at your strongest and your weakest. Your strong, because you just got a freaking Cube! But weak in that you probably just obliterated your entire cc count and a large amount of resource reserves. So building that 'fleet' of 'spammable' adaptors or dodes.. right after that cube is built, you have to wait for cc's to come back. This is not a spam. How does that happen? Even if at best you have level five cc, it still takes a bit of time to get 20, and 20 more etc. And those aren't highly powerful ships being built.
In the same way, sensor stations are needed to influence romulan gameplay. Cloaking factions don't feet the 'control' of other factions, when they can fly right by you unhindered.
Maybe this is more an online thing. The problem I see is right after a diamond (90 cc expended) or cube is built, there is a huge loss in cc, and getting it back up to that level to build another unit of that caliber is difficult. To a certain extent it really should be too... you just built 5 cubes in 2 minutes that is not fair!!!!!!!!! True, probably not. But at this point, the cc isn't the balancing factor. The resources are. You can't collect that many resources and ccs to do that really.
A hasty proposal perhaps, but I'd like to see some late game borg station that helps generate cc's in a more affordable way, perhaps even conditional on a cube or diamond having been just built. So a station is created, and after a cube or diamond is built, it quickly spits out ccs for a dozen seconds. I dunno.
Have I not made a good point? Like I know the power of a cube. It's giving that cube reinforcements of similar strength that I find takes forever. Even if I went to zero resources, zero supplies, and zero ccs. The resources are enormous, 6000 2500 etc. The ccs are huge, 130. And the supplies! 85 plus 150ish. I mean, if you build two cubes, thats sooo much. like nearing on 500 supply, 260 cc, 12000 and 5000.
Edit: It's almost like it's over balanced. Huge resources, giant supply cost, and high cc requirements. And in late game, there just isn't a great way to get that flow going when you start needing cubes. Although, I'm starting to think you just never need them in an online game like you do in a late AI game I suppose. So this isn't so big a deal anymore. AI late game factors are big. Multi is vastly different as we know. Plus, multi game as I've heard just don't go that way I guess, into cubes and such etc. They don't really get built all that much? But even with having just built a diamond. Going from 90 to zero, and getting that back up to 90 for another diamond. Does that scenario come up at all?
Maybe this is another online thing. Because you do need more than one cube against AI fleets if you are playing a good game with the AI. And it is doable... it just seems ... not right. That I need over a dozen incubation centres to keep those supply so idea, and five moon pairs to get me my resources, but those ccs!!! They just don't collect the way I need them too.
I dunno.
1 borg cube cannot occupy an entire map. It does not need to, ... I see this in context, but not necessarily sure I know what way you are intending it.
I stated earlier how control stems from a necessary response from your opponent. By having that cube, I agree, that control is conveyed without it necessarily occupying the entire map. But this is simply now turning into more tactics and strategy. I have to respond to that cube. But it depends. The smaller the map, the more that response is stressed, and therefore benefits borg player. But I do not see how 1 borg cube can exert control effectively on a 25k map. It is very slow. Very powerful, but if there are 4 expansions, it can't possibly attack them all.
Hence, it comes down to what I can do. I am assuming the fleet qualities are comparative. If in online gameplay every time a borg cube comes out it basically wins, that is most unfortunate. It would be nice to have it where borg can use their late game units, while at the same time, other factions can return in kind with 15+ battleships.
I was going to get into turrets but decided not to. So Borg can go into dodes and relays, this is strict occupation, but far less control. You control a certain area, and beyond that, the only real control you inflict on the rest of the map, is that the passage of units have to consider that area as 'yours'. So certain avenues of travel may be constrained. But turrets, whether numerous or more powerful, occupy and control a particular area. But do not really have huge influence like similar resources put into fleets. Still, a borg player who has several relays, is much more able to send his cube out and about without fear of inadequate defences.
And thats just the thing, right after you build that borg cube, you are almost at your strongest and your weakest. Your strong, because you just got a freaking Cube! But weak in that you probably just obliterated your entire cc count and a large amount of resource reserves. So building that 'fleet' of 'spammable' adaptors or dodes.. right after that cube is built, you have to wait for cc's to come back. This is not a spam. How does that happen? Even if at best you have level five cc, it still takes a bit of time to get 20, and 20 more etc. And those aren't highly powerful ships being built.
In the same way, sensor stations are needed to influence romulan gameplay. Cloaking factions don't feet the 'control' of other factions, when they can fly right by you unhindered.
Maybe this is more an online thing. The problem I see is right after a diamond (90 cc expended) or cube is built, there is a huge loss in cc, and getting it back up to that level to build another unit of that caliber is difficult. To a certain extent it really should be too... you just built 5 cubes in 2 minutes that is not fair!!!!!!!!! True, probably not. But at this point, the cc isn't the balancing factor. The resources are. You can't collect that many resources and ccs to do that really.
A hasty proposal perhaps, but I'd like to see some late game borg station that helps generate cc's in a more affordable way, perhaps even conditional on a cube or diamond having been just built. So a station is created, and after a cube or diamond is built, it quickly spits out ccs for a dozen seconds. I dunno.
Have I not made a good point? Like I know the power of a cube. It's giving that cube reinforcements of similar strength that I find takes forever. Even if I went to zero resources, zero supplies, and zero ccs. The resources are enormous, 6000 2500 etc. The ccs are huge, 130. And the supplies! 85 plus 150ish. I mean, if you build two cubes, thats sooo much. like nearing on 500 supply, 260 cc, 12000 and 5000.
Edit: It's almost like it's over balanced. Huge resources, giant supply cost, and high cc requirements. And in late game, there just isn't a great way to get that flow going when you start needing cubes. Although, I'm starting to think you just never need them in an online game like you do in a late AI game I suppose. So this isn't so big a deal anymore. AI late game factors are big. Multi is vastly different as we know. Plus, multi game as I've heard just don't go that way I guess, into cubes and such etc. They don't really get built all that much? But even with having just built a diamond. Going from 90 to zero, and getting that back up to 90 for another diamond. Does that scenario come up at all?
Maybe this is another online thing. Because you do need more than one cube against AI fleets if you are playing a good game with the AI. And it is doable... it just seems ... not right. That I need over a dozen incubation centres to keep those supply so idea, and five moon pairs to get me my resources, but those ccs!!! They just don't collect the way I need them too.
I dunno.
posted on February 24th, 2012, 12:20 am
Diamonds can and are built by Borg players in 1v1 matchups. Look at the final match of last year's tournament for an example.
posted on February 24th, 2012, 12:53 am
on a side note i did think that a fleet of sang can bring a cube down rather fast.
posted on February 24th, 2012, 2:37 am
Well, one thing that I think I should point out is that Cubes are never built in 1v1 games, ever. Unless it is a large map and players who both want to build up, in which case the other player will have a comparable fleet.
Cubes are only built in 2v2 or larger games, where they are viable. It's exactly as you said, a cube needs a support fleet and that fleet comes from the other player(s) while the borg player focuses all his resources toward the cube.
Also, in multiplayer Diamonds have an insane strength that you never see against the AI. That's because the AI always has more ships and loses more ships than a human. The powerful long-range disable of Nanites combined with the devastating 150 damage torpedo mean that it can get kills in every engagement, whittling down the enemy force or taking a defensive stance while more Diamonds come out. With a support fleet, they can be more effective than a cube and cost far less.
Cubes are only built in 2v2 or larger games, where they are viable. It's exactly as you said, a cube needs a support fleet and that fleet comes from the other player(s) while the borg player focuses all his resources toward the cube.
Also, in multiplayer Diamonds have an insane strength that you never see against the AI. That's because the AI always has more ships and loses more ships than a human. The powerful long-range disable of Nanites combined with the devastating 150 damage torpedo mean that it can get kills in every engagement, whittling down the enemy force or taking a defensive stance while more Diamonds come out. With a support fleet, they can be more effective than a cube and cost far less.
1, 2
Reply
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests